Quote: connie sutherland

"I always start puppies off-leash." (Jenni)

"Enclosed is great, but not always possible. Large and safe will do if need be. Wide open spaces, parks, big fenced yards, etc." (Jenni)

No no no no. Off-leash puppies outdoors in unenclosed areas (like parks) are not something I would ever recommend to anyone.

I did say SAFE. I didn't elaborate, and guess I need to tell everyone to employ some common sense...

Big fenced yards ARE enclosed spaces. "Wide open spaces and parks" are not the places for off-leash puppies. Lots of parks have fences...but I still call the dog "off-leash" or "loose" as the area is so wide they do not feel enclosed and do have the option to follow or not...or at least they think they do..
"Edited to say, I have also attached a pup's leash to an older dog. They will walk right with them and not even realize they are tied." (Jenni)

Then they can walk right with the human and not even realize they are tied. This has not been my experience. Maybe all my puppies are strange (possible...I like weirdos, LOL), but they downright haul @$$ to keep up w/me and an adult dog they look up to, whereas if it's just us, they dawdle a lot more. I wonder if it's partly got to do with the height difference; maybe they don't notice the leash as much when attached to something shorter??? Dunno.<shrug>

We may be having two different discussions and I just don't get what you mean, and if so, then I apologize, but I am intervening here to advise -- strongly -- against any suggestion to "start puppies off-leash" in "wide open space and parks." I didn't tell everyone to start their puppies off-leash, or I didn't mean to if it sounded that way. The OP was asking about off-leash behavior, so I mentioned the fact that *I prefer* to start walking w/puppies off-leash, or dragging leash. I didn't really get into where or how or post a DIY safety checklist, and I guess I should've (I sometimes forget how many people read this board...that it's not just "us.") Sooo...nooo. For the general Tom, Dick, and Harry, I am not "recommending" that anyone start their puppies off-leash in unenclosed areas...hence my reference to NYC as a bad place to try this. It was sarcastic, but meant to be a "evaluate the safety of the situation" comment.

I'm having quoting issues...so I had to change colors. Obviously, my new comments are red. Not to hurt anyone's eyes or look angry...but b/c I can't get any of my quotes to show up properly. SORRY!

 Quote: jenni williams

I always start puppies off-leash. I have found that allowing them freedom seems to quell the urge to take it later on.

When I asked if you meant in enclosed spaces, you said:

 Quote: jenni williams

Enclosed is great, but not always possible. Large and safe will do if need be. Wide open spaces, parks, big fenced yards, etc.

The reply from me strongly discourages walking untrained puppies (or any dogs without a great recall) off-leash in unenclosed places. (BTW, yes, you said "safe;" but to me, with a starting dog who has no recall, safe means enclosed or on a leash or line.)


Pretty clear. You said one thing, and I said that this would not be what I would recommend to anyone.

I have a couple of acres fenced in. Safety is not an issue.

But with pups, if I think there is any possibility at all that I am going to need to give a recall I make sure I have a long line on them. I do not want to give them the chance to blow me off.

And they will try. My experience is that one day you have to be careful not to trip over a pup, they stay so close to you and the next day they will be more then happy to look over their shoulder and laugh at me while running away from me.

Just my experience. I've had one or two pups/young dogs here.
<grin>

what Betty said.

 Quote: connie sutherland

 Quote: jenni williams

I always start puppies off-leash. I have found that allowing them freedom seems to quell the urge to take it later on.

When I asked if you meant in enclosed spaces, you said:

 Quote: jenni williams

Enclosed is great, but not always possible. Large and safe will do if need be. Wide open spaces, parks, big fenced yards, etc.

The reply from me strongly discourages walking untrained puppies (or any dogs without a great recall) off-leash in unenclosed places. (BTW, yes, you said "safe;" but to me, with a starting dog who has no recall, safe means enclosed or on a leash or line.)


Pretty clear. You said one thing, and I said that this would not be what I would recommend to anyone.

I was also talking about starting puppies...meaning 6-8 weeks old.A pup that young is, IMO, not even capable of "ignoring" you. My perspective is strictly from an imprinting to want to be w/you standpoint...certainly never meant it to be picked apart and analyzed so closely, or I would've included a bunch of disclaimers and been uber careful how I worded it. I was just chatting about my personal favorite way to start a tiny pup walking w/you. I think it's been taken out of context and not quoted to include all the times I referred to safety and age. An 8 week old pup will not be running after a cat 150 yards in front of you. An 8 week old pup should not be more than a couple feet from you, ever.

"Safe" to me means out of danger from cars, other dogs, etc., not "enclosed" or "unenclosed."Hell,a dog park is fenced, and I can't think of a more dangerous spot than that, except maybe some train tracks, but your chances of an altercation are slighter on the tracks. There are many unsafe areas and not all that many safe areas; owners need to evaluate an area before bringing a puppy there, whether it be enclosed, unenclosed, off-leash, dragging leash, on-leash....whatever. It's your job to protect your puppy.


I was simply throwing a theory pertaining to this topic out there and sharing my personal experience with my personal dogs...not trying to tell anyone what they should do or shouldn't or what is safe or isn't.

Last time I will quote myself from my original text...

They would be wearing a leash, just in case,

You can always grab or step on the leash in a dire emergency.
A 6-8 week old puppy is not terribly fast or hard to catch either, and will typically stay right with you, which is why I do it this way instead of putting them on a short leash which they will instinctively pull against.

This probably would not be a great thing to do downtown New York City...but in a suburban or rural area, I've found nothing faster at getting a pup to want to stick with me than to give him the freedom to choose to do so on his own, if it can be done safely.



Ok, I'm done now. No one will hear another peep out of me regarding what I do w/my puppies. Just don't like it when something morphs into something it wasn't meant to be when I typed it. Goodnight, all.

Jennie, as far as a young puppy wanting to always be with you...I would have to say that might depend on how 'independant' the pup might be. My 3 yrs old male as a pup of 9 weeks old took off across a 2 1/2 acre field following a little yellow butterfly one day draging a 10 ft long light cotton line. It was the cutest thing that you could ever see.....until he almost got away when I tripped over my own stupid feet. If the butterfly hadn't stopped at the little flowers along the way & the pup stopped with it, I might not have caught up with him. After that day ..,out came the 20 foot light cotton line & I never let him get more then 10 feet away from me. That way I could always grab or step on the line to stop him. He also was a very independent pup & would let me walk quite a ways away from him without looking around to see where I was. Even in my fenced yard he would let me walk out of sight to the other side of the yard & could care less. This was from day one. None of the other pups that I have raised were ever like that. They would take off runnuing as fast as their little legs would carry them toward me if they looked up & I wasn't within 10 feet of them. This male grew up to be a velcro dog. I follows me like my shadow even around the house from room to room.

 Quote: jenni williams

Ok, I'm done now. No one will hear another peep out of me regarding what I do w/my puppies. Just don't like it when something morphs into something it wasn't meant to be when I typed it. Goodnight, all.

You're right that it's easy to forget that this is a public board read by thousands, members as well as non-.

When you posted "I always start puppies off-leash. I have found that allowing them freedom seems to quell the urge to take it later on"


... my response-question was formulated to help you modify that for puppy-owning readers (when I asked if you meant in enclosed spaces). You said "Enclosed is great, but not always possible. Large and safe will do if need be. Wide open spaces, parks, big fenced yards, etc."

I was not alone in having perceived the post as being unwise.


A million lines of "that's not what I meant" don't really change it much, because the million lines are never going to be read as easily and readily as the first lines of a post.

 Quote: Anne Jones

.... After that day ... out came the 20 foot light cotton line ....

I believe that this was one of the options Ed was recommending in his post.

 Quote: Ed Frawley

.... dont ... tell people that off leash walks with puppies is OK - it's not OK .... If you want to take your dog off leash when it's not fully trained - take him to a fenced yard.

It's nothing to do with arguing with any poster, actually. It's just ensuring that this is the message that folks reading the LB board come away with.

 Quote: Anne Jones

... out came the 20 foot light cotton line ....

Is that the best thing ever, or what?

I have them all over the place, and have pieces of old ones as tethers (to tether a new dog to my belt-loop) as well as little drag-lines (loop-less) for periods of teaching open-door behavior.




http://leerburg.com/729.htm



Edited by Connie Sutherland (07/08/2009 03:27 PM)
Edit reason: add URL

 Quote: natalya zahn

.... Recall. It sounds like you and Suzzie are doing great so far, but keep up training, and I'd keep that drag line on her until you feel like she's as close to 100% reliable as possible. There's always a chance that she might encounter something in her exploration that she's never seen before (and that you've consequently not trained as a distraction) so having a "safety line" could come in very handy. Having extra delicious treats with you for rewards under such distracting circumstances could help, if Suzie is keen on food rewards. ....

This is such a great opportunity for gradually proofing the recall!