Consciousness and thinking are not tidy all-or-nothing concepts; it varies with age, culture, experience and gender. And if animals have conscious experiences that they can associate and then deduct, these maybe are widely as well.

It might help to consider what an animal might be conscious of before we think of how they and if they think. It seems more likely than not that some animals are aware of objects and events that are critically important in their lives, such as what food is tasty, which animals are dangerous predators, and whether particular companions are friendly or aggressive.


The fact is that we lack adequate methods to identify conclusively what behavior is "conscious." Investigations have begun to include nonhuman consciousness. In particular, Alan Cowey of Oxford University and Petra Stoerig of the Institute of Medical Psychology at Ludwig-Maximilians University in Germany and is worth looking into if you are interested.

I agree dogs don't think like humans, but they do think and reason.

I remember this story on Animal house Dogs with jobs (or one of those shows), These border collies or collies came from playing in the yard to save their 3 year old human child from a escaping horse stampped.

These dogs were never trained to do this, they saw the incident happen from a distance. Reasoned that the little girl didn't see the approaching horses and could not move out of the way in time. They thought and made a concisous effort to steer these huge charging beast of burden around this child.

They ran to the little girl stood 6 feet are so in front and aggressively streed the horses around the now frighten little girl. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I know some people might say that was instinctive and maybe not thinking at all, because the three of them could have been stomped to death.

But to put together from a distance that, if I don't do something my baby dies. It was a concisous thought that started from a split second scenario that caused an idea to form a picture like 2 + 2 = 4, reasoning, dedication, sacrifice and love. This is another reason why I think they think how else can they be so dedicated to loving US.

Hell I don't really understand Love, like most men I hate to feel it. Imagine the idea of caring for someone more or as much as you do yourself. It hurts just to think about it.

I agree totally that Dogs don't think like humans, they are not always selfish or will sell out their family/friends for sex, money and fame.

It's becoming MO that they do have concisous reasoning or thought patterns beyond the instinctive, and they can make somewhat complicated decisons (relatively speaking). Not just based on conditioning to commands taught thru repetitious routines.

Some may argue animal don't think, but the experiment with the Gorilla that uses sign language, that can paint and can ask for what she wants. Is pretty close to basic human rational, in a primal way. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Could we suggest that they think like dogs? But can interact in our world by figuring out what we want or expect from them.

i'm sure most of us have witnessed our dogs twitching and vocalizing while they are fast asleep . surely some brain activity is ongoing : leads me to wonder , if they think ( in any way ) do they also dream ?

Going back to the comment about a dog knowing that they are not allowed on a sofa or bed, but choosing to do so when the owner is out.

Wouldn't the dog make the connection of:-

1).

Going back to the comment about a dog knowing that they are not allowed on a sofa or bed, but "choosing" to do so when the owner is out.

Would the dog make the connection of the fact that the owner has gone out - and therefore is not present to say "off Rover"? (I sure think that our mutts do! :rolleyes: ).

I know it comes down to a training issue, but all the same - wouldn't the dog make the choice not to get onto the bed, because of the ramifications of doing so, or knowing (from previous attempts) that this is not the right thing to do?.

Doesn't this warrant any thinking activity/ability on the part of the dog?.

Find the person, other than that psych(o) on animal planet, who can speak with a dog and relate what it knows. Before that , all the double -blind theoretical bullshit is just that. If a dog can think or reason at any level, why does it take hundreds of repititons to "teach" a behavior to a 90% accuracey level?

If a dog can think or reason why does it take hundreds of reps....First your assuming the dog actually gives a crap about what you want it to do.People that I dont care about dont think I have much to say.Actually I just dont feel any need to say anything to them. Ofcourse dogs dont think or reason the same way we do.So dogs dont say bye and they dont pack a lunch, I wouldnt either if I could run down about anything I wanted to eat. Wolves bury food to eat in the future, that shows some fore thought.Sure dogs think. I think its narrow minded to assume they cant think. Its better to accept we dont know how they think or what they think about. Dogs arent man's best friend because they are idiots and easy to trick but more because our worlds and what we are aware of overlap.I believe they think, I just think they think like dogs!!

Gordon have you seen this experiment in how dogs have to think? This dog trainer was trying to stress the important of timing in excerises. He had learned this in a S&R seminar.

We placed 4-5 items on a table, and had five stick of gum or whatever. In this drill the person playing the dog was to point at or put a hand near the item you think he was looking at, each time you were right, you were rewarded with gum. After about 20 tries with bad timing I could pick out, maybe 3 of the five things on the table.

With good timing in about the 4 or 5 tries I could select the items he wanted. With the lack verbal communication or ability to speak the same language, the person or dog would have to reason or hold that thought about what you wanted, before getting it right.

I agree with David and the other pro thought group that dogs do think but they think like dogs. Ignoring things and people that they don't care about is a good example of how dogs may see us sometimes.

this is a discussion that seems to come up quite a bit. personally, i think it's pretty arrogant to believe that humans are the only ones capable of putting together rational thoughts. do they think like us? no. they're not wired the same, their brains aren't as developed, and the inborn instincts and drives or motivations are different.

they can think. they can figure things out. just simpler things. like how to get into/out of stuff. but a lot of the behaviors humans want them to do are learned or conditioned. do you really believe they are mindless robots, laying their staring off in complete oblivion until we tell them to do something? seems like a pretty bleak existence.

as for why it takes 'hundreds of reps to learn a simple behavior'? think about it this way - we're not teaching them to "sit". they sit on their own. we're teaching them to communicate - to do it when we say so. THAT's what takes so many repetitions. the communication part. compare it to football players - an athlete knows all the physical actions of their sport, they know how to run, catch, etc. but it takes a lot of repetitions and studying of the play book to 'learn' exactly what thier supposed to do when they hear a certain play called...

just my two cents.

I have often thought that some men and some dogs think alike or maybe it's that they don't think at all!!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Just kidding..... I just find it hard to believe that dogs do all the things they do with not a thought in their head. I know that a good trainer builds on and teaches through the use of the natural instincts of a dog, but, it is hard to look into the eyes of my K-9 friends and see nothing. At least none of my dogs have a blank look on their faces!

The only thing needed is a method of communication for a human and a dog to share a job or be good companions for one another...etc. Sometimes we humans with our higher intelligence fail to find that method. Whether our failure is the inability to teach our K-9 student or listen to what he is trying to communicate to us. Other words, sometimes a dog will teach himself if we allow it to happen, we just like fast results therefore the dog has to learn things our way.

Sure they think....just not like us. IMHO

Debbie