Don,
The training field was a soccer field located on the base. Nothing special. The decoy caught the dog and instead of carefully bringing him back down after swinging him the decoy bent over at the waist and allowed the dogs' full weight to come down on the left leg while still in full swing. Personally, I like the swinging method as it very rarely injures the dog and ensures good grip but when swinging 70 to 80 pounds around and letting it all land on one small area of the dog something had to give. When I catch I am sure not to let the dog down hard. I make sure he is gently set down on both feet. Obviously if you have a real freight train and cant hold your balance there might be a problem but it is up to the person catching to know the dog or make sure the handler fills you in on how his dog hits so that you are prepared. So far the only injury my dog has sustained from muzzle work is that he bites his tongue alot. It may be due to the stainless/titanium canines though.


MTR,
You are right about high drive dogs working through the pain. Before I realized his ankle was broke we conducted two more re-attacks without missing a beat. When returning the dog back to the vehicle is when I noticed he was limping and the whole time he had missile lock on the decoy and didnt want to give up.


Khoi, OUCH!!!

Howard wrote - So far the only injury my dog has sustained from muzzle work is that he bites his tongue alot. It may be due to the stainless/titanium canines though.

Stainless/Titanium canines? Did the dog loose some teeth doing bite work? Or did you just really want to add something to his bite?

Freak accident on the ankle bite, huh? So the dogs retired or can you repair that, with that kind of drive everytime he see a decoy or sleeve he still wants to work I bet. That Mal got heart!

GD - The bungee cord sounds like a safe method of doing the short run bite. Good idea.

MTR - I gotcha, the risk is not worth it.

Khoi - What injury did the dog sustain? I saw him hit the ground but it didn't look that bad. It wasn't a clean catch but it wasn't alot of twisting in the air.

Don,
While in the bomb school I rewarded the dog on a find with a 21/2" rubber ball. When he went to grab it as the ball slipped out of his mouth he smashed his teeth on the pavement, shattering three upper incisors. Two were extracted and a root canal and cap was placed on the third which he subsequently lost later in bite training. While the dental work was being done, the vet advised me that the dog had soft teeth and was showing premature wear. The vet felt this was a genetic problem. The four canines were capped, with the roots intact, to prevent future root canals AND caps.

As far as the ankle problem goes, one of the small bones (tarsals) that make up the ankle was fractured. The dog was put in soft splints for 6 months and then evaluated. Alot of calcium built up and when the dog put stress on the back legs he would limp. His walk and stance also changed to favor the injury. Because this is a critical area where there is a lot of stress in running, jumping dragging etc. we couldnt gaurantee re-injury and more down time so he was retired. It really broke my heart (and his) everytime I left for work without him. He eventually learned to accept his new job as house security. Of course I gave him regular bites to keep him happy and ensure obedience while in drive. Unfortunately he got hold of my new partners' Kong and ate part of it which lodged in his intestine which eventually ruptured. Peritinitis set in and he died in December 2002. His memorial, as well as thousands of others can be seen at---K9memorialcards.com

Don, all I know is an upper back injury that won't heel, and the dog is retired from major competition.)-:

Howard that does it for me, no more having them fetch log balls bouncing on the concrete. I always wondered if they ever scraped their tooth on the concrete as they went after the ball. Wheew you never know how lucky you are until you stop and consider what could happen. Thats it for me sending them after balls on hard surfaces!! Thanks.. For some reason you think because they seem so athletic and timing so precise that accidents do happen to them. Thanks again man.

Khonis - That looked like a world beater to me, was that the Otis dog that the website was about? Man he looked like a world champ to me, thats was a pity. The bump didn't look that hard, but the old formula E2M2 = trouble if they collide.

Both dogs sound like tigers, it sad that they ended so aburtly.

protection work is all about timing and leg work (where and how u put your feet). When a dog goes in for a bite, the helper should not block the dog, but move with him to the side, while putting one leg back to absorb the shock. For example: the helper has the sleeve on the left arm, the dog goes in for the bite, the helper moves with the dog (the pressure) to the left side while moving his left leg back and twisting. If you are not sure of the helper, I would ask the helper to do a bite while standing still and a short bite, then you could see how he catches the dog. Helpers can make bad dogs look good and a lot of people don't see that, so beware <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> Ask around about the helper and if he/she has good references, then learn to trust the helper and trainer, they are the ones at the end of the sleeve <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

 Quote:

Originally posted by Lee Baragona - Sch3FH2:
Play with fire and you're gonna get burned. .....and most of all, it is the OWNER'S responsibility to be selective about who he trusts to catch his dog and how he designs his training. It's the owner's job to design the training plan, not the helper's.

Lee makes a great point here. Yes, the Trainer/Decoy shoudl have input, and assist in the training methodology, but if you have an advanced dog, and you have been doing this for a while, you should be able to know when soemthing is wrong, or going too far, etc.. The handler is the one that should know their dog the best... and they are the one at the end of the day that has to answer for all the mistakes.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Ok Matt and Lee

Then only experience owner/handlers should look to have their dogs worked in bitework. I understand that the welfare of your dog in your responcibilty but how would a newbie know if the planned bitework training is ill guided or dangerous for the dog. I mean I've learned a lot through this post. Like You could asked or just watch the decoy catch some dogs before considering them working with your dog.

But what about the Newbies that aren't a part of this forum? Is it just pot luck for them?

You pay a team or guy for his experience and for what he says he can do, Right? Shouldn't you get what you pay for?
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

When I started the sport, I was living in Germany, and yes, I trusted the helpers. But I paid attention, listened, asked questions and learned. By the time I moved back to the US, my pup was 10 mos. old and already I could recognize that I didn't want some of the helpers I saw in my area working my dog. I could already tell the helper what I wanted to work on, when I wanted the dog rewarded and how, etc.

An awful lot of people in a sch club are there for the social aspects - it's fun to meet with other people, chat, and work your dogs. But they don't pay attention to the training until it is THEIR turn. When all the other dogs are being worked, they're talking, but it isn't about dogs. So of course they never learn. But if you really want to learn, you shut up and get out on the field, right up close to the work, pay attention, and you will learn.

Even when I go to a seminar with a nationally know, world-team member or a European big name helper, I never sign up to work my dog until I have watched the man work many dogs first. Then I decide if this is someone I want to work my dogs on, and sometimes the answer is no. I'm going to have input on how the dog is worked...period. If the guy isn't amenable to working WITH me, if he just wants carte blanche to do as he pleases, forget it. I'll learn just as much watching him work other dogs and leaving mine in the car.

Don,

what I meant is this:
when you own and handle a working dog, you learn (or should) to read his body language, is he avoiding, is he tired, hurt, bored, about to be dirty, etc..

why wait until the decoy proves you right, for the thousandth time???

I am not saying to go out and get into a theoretical argument with your decoy... what I am saying is offer your point of view.. if you are right, you may save your decoy alot of pain and sweat (even blood!!).. if you are wrong, the decoy/trainer should be able to tell you so, in a professional adult manner.

this is a team event, not a silent handler event.