Quote: meredith hamilton

What about the Spencer Quinn "Chet" books? I find Chet to be an honest and likely dog "voice", even more so than Almondine of Edgar Sawtelle.

Great pick! And wellness to you.

What a great subject, it really got me thinking. And these books sound fascinating.

Simply owning and working with dogs, I like to believe they are able to realize when their behavior has a desired emotional effect on us as our behaviors/emotions do on them. We’re happy, they’re happy, we’re sad, they’re sad; we’re scared, they attack…oops, I mean they’re scared. I believe they feel two things – pleasure and pain (internal and external)… but that’s a whole other subject.

Watching my boys interact with each other, us and others, I don’t think it’s so much a matter of jealousy, fairness or possession, rather than one of inclusion and a sense of belonging. I train a lot individually however; we also play engaging games together. The boys sit out and wait their turn when told to – because I’ve asked them to. If it’s unstructured together time, each one wants to be close to me, feeling the energy and anticipating the fun to come. Kind of like being at a concert and I’m the rock star. People are going to push their way to the front, gaining the best position for inclusion in the action. When crowds get hectic (emotions are running high with excitement) people get bowled over, lash out, and jockey for the best position. The pushier ones get up front and the more disadvantage are left standing at the back. Is this jealousy and possession?

We want our dogs to be the best that they can be - the fastest, prettiest, bite the hardest, most obedient and we reward them for this outstanding behavior with our pride. When they want to get to us first or be front and center as we are engaging with others, I think the water gets really muddied when we start correcting for this. We want (what we view as) manners, however at what price?

To ask them to stand back as we kiss a loved one or pet another dog is arresting their desire to be included in the interaction. I like to try and figure out what their role is at times like this and how can they achieve it to best of their ability. Do I want them by my side, protecting me as a stranger approaches or showering me with kisses to show people how much they love me – maybe, maybe not. Do I want them all to run up with wiggle butts to great me when I come home – if I do, who am I going to reward first and how am I going to deal with the disadvantaged one at the back - is he any more important than the one that has struggled the hardest, having the strongest desire and ability to get included first.

I believe we need to think about train for these situations (ourselves as well as our dogs). We need a clear picture in our mind of what our dogs roles are in any given situation. I believe they are living every moment looking for unconflicting inclusion and I see it as my job to uncomplicate that for them.

All JMHO of course.

The limbic system of the brain, where emotions live, is not in the frontal lobes, as I understand it, but deeper, in the part of the brain that at least anatomically is not much different than that of a human brain.

I think dogs can feel embarrassed. We had a poodle that acted ashamed after her trips to the groomer. Dogs don't like to be laughed at -- laughed with is ok, but if they put effort into something and it doesn't work and you laugh, they don't like it.
Re-Almondine-reading that book (while with super sick Dad at the Mayo Clinic) got me thinking about a new dog. The fiction of a kennel "our own special type" is probably what led me believe that the kennel where I purchased my pup might have a legit thing going. Talk about "willing suspension of disbelief"....

Well said CJ! that has certainly given me much to think while I work with Loki this weekend.

what emotion did she say a dog was displaying when caught in the act of doing something wrong and hangs its head and crawls away, even before you say anything.
I had a poodle when I was little, she hated wearing a sanitary belt (mom didn't fix her was breeding her, so when she wasn't bred and was in heat my mom put this belt on her to keep the blood from getting on her carpet, etc.) My poor dog hated it, and would hide and hang her head when anyone came over! We always laughed about it.
What do you think her emotions/thoughts were then? interesting...hmmm...just wondering

 Quote: connie sutherland

... the dog is more likely to be demonstrating his ownership of the valued item (including an owner who the dog perceives as his possession) and his unwillingness to share.

JMO!

JMO2!! Well described, Connie.

The terms "jealousy," "envy," and similar are human terms to describe human constructs. Dogs just look after stuff they either possess, think they possess, or want to possess.

we feel jealousy and envy when we think we are loosing OUR possessions, ie spouse, etc, frankly I don't see the diff except we give it a name.

 Quote: betty landercasp

we feel jealousy and envy when we think we are loosing OUR possessions, ie spouse, etc, frankly I don't see the diff except we give it a name.

Really? Remember we specified jealousy and not envy .... think about the human jealousy when there is a real or perceived romantic rival. Does this translate to ownership? I know it can in certain cases, but in a human, jealousy is emotional pain triggered by fear of losing your loved one to a romantic rival.

And I do think that the big problem with ascribing human emotions like jealousy to dogs is that it obscures the real problem: the skewed perception on the part of that dog that he "either possesses, thinks he possesses, or wants to possess"* the human. A dangerous situation .....

"I don't see the diff except we give it a name." We give resource-guarding a name, too.

Some of this is semantics, of course, but it's actually dangerous when Fluffy's owner thinks that "protecting" her or being "jealous of," say, her husband, is cute, flattering, a sign of a special bond, or anything else along those lines. What it is, is a dog who sees himself, at least to some extent, as the boss, the owner, the rule-maker.


*as Rob phrased it

 Quote: betty landercasp

we feel jealousy and envy when we think we are loosing OUR possessions, ie spouse, etc, frankly I don't see the diff except we give it a name.

Yeah - not saying dogs don't "feel" emotions, I'm just saying that our attribution that dogs feel emotions the same as those ascribed to humans may or may not be accurate.

I just agree with Connie - as trainers, we are better off dealing with the behavior rather than trying to interpret some higher-ordered "emotion" that drives it.

As an analogy, I'll offer an example from the schools. I work with teachers who work with children with significant disabilities. Some kids sometimes will fondle their genitals during the school day. Some adults want to label the behavior and delve into the "deeper" causes of why the students might be motivated to fondle themselves during classroom instruction (and of course, we always rule out potential home-related causes of the behavior). Then, I take a much simpler approach. I ask the teacher, "what do you want the student to be doing with his hands?" The teacher always says "I want his hands on his desk doing his work." My response? "Ok - shape, reinforce, and maintain 'hands on desk.'" It cures the problem nearly every time.

Deal with the behavior. There is no need to label a "construct" such as an emotion that may or may not have validity for the species.

Whew! Great thread Barbara! I have found it very interesting to read and think about.

I do 100% agree that you have to deal with the behavior, preferably before or at the earliest stage of development and without emotion or justification.

I'm still intrigued, when looking into those brown eyes, what's going on in there.