Okay, some of them like it when you win for them. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Hi again. Boy,I didn't mean to start any arguments among board members!

I do not muzzle Gator because I do not walk him in my town of 264 people. As I stated in my original post, we were in the middle of nowhere. Tuesday's walk is on the grounds of an old burned out house behind a stucco wall outside of town. Thursday's walk is is at the river near the closed bridge, and Saturday we drive down the old logging road for our walk.

We have been going to these places for years now, and last month was the only time we encountered a dog in any one of these places. We have seen coyotes, which is why I keep Gator on the leash, but they run away from us, not towards us.

I feel that by choosing isolated areas to walk my dog and keeping him on lead even in these places, I am more than doing my part to prevent dog fights. I am doing this not only for the safety of other dogs and prevention of bad press to pits in general, but my biggest motivating factor is that when he gets all wound up, Gator sometimes seizes. So y'all can rest assured that I am diligent about this.

I think I have to agree with Doc Pyle that one totally unexpected incident as a pup and one brief fight caused by an unleashed dog 5 miles down a dirt road going nowhere is a pretty good track record for a dog-aggressive animal. I think this speaks to my diligence as an owner.

Again, thank y'all for taking time to give your opinions. And I am very pleased to note that none of you seem to feel Gator is unsound in any way.

Who cares about fluffy. What I care about is the PERSON whose nose got taken off because he tried to "save" his dog. I mean the cross would going somthing like this:

Your dog has bitten other dogs?
Yes

Your dog has bitten dogs on more than one occassion?
yes

You know that if another dog approches your dog it will attack that other dog?
yes

You know that if someones dog is being attacked they will try to break up that fight?
yes

You know when that happens there is a good chance that a person will be bit?
Yes

Now is there a tool that can be used to prevent a dog from biting another dog or person?
Yes it is called a muzzle.

You knew there was a danger when you walked your dog but you ignored that danger when you took your dog out without a muzzle?
Yes

And because of that Ms Smith no longer has a nose?
yes

And then come all the breed specific pit bull questions

Admittedly this was a an easy witness but if this case came in my office I would take it in a second and I am neither young nor hungry.

I just do not think the risk to the public nor to a persons assets are worth it when a muzzle on walks cures everything.

Should you ever find yourself in court, his name should be something like Gary, or Greg. Gator implies biting and or aggression.


I know, what a crok of crap... but there is a little story behind this advice.

There is a very well known river on the east coast, the Gauley. People come from all over to raft every year in the fall when the water is at its highest releases by the Army Corp of Engineers.

There used to be a rapid named "Guides Revenge" that is now called "Fuzzy Box of Kittens" because some dumb@ss was seperated from the boat in the previously named rapid and sued the company claiming they knew it was dangerous. Nevermind that the particular rapid is a class III (intermediate) and there are other class V(expert. extremely long, obstructed, or very violent rapids which expose a paddler to added risk) rapids on the trip- the international rapid scale was not the problem. The name was.


UM, HELLO! This is whitewater! Being one-with-boat is not always part of the trip. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

So anyway, all the companies got together and renamed the rapid to a more benign name all because of a stupid dork who likes to sue.

Michelle,
You are ultimately the judge of your dog. It us up to you to keep your dog safe, and others safe from him. If you have any suspicion that the dog us unsafe, muzzling is the only 100% sure way your dog will not bite someone.

In some cases, even animal aggression can be interpreted that the dog might be a danger. I find this idiotic, but that is the way it is. All dogs bite. Period. Not a dog alive that you could not push to bite in some situation. I think most people in this country want 'furkids', children without the mess, or expense, or resposibility. And they don't expect dogs to act like dogs. They assign them capablilities of human reasoning, do not take into account breed-specific behaviour, heck dog specific behaviour. They expect their GSD to accept strangers in the home without reaction, the Border Collie to leave the kids and the cat alone, while keeping it locked up in suburbia, the JRT not to dig and stay calm, all the while doing the funny tricks 'just like the dog on TV'. I don't think most people want their dog to do anything at all...

It is ultimatly destructive to the dog as a dog, because you give it no outlet for its natural drives, and you breed poor specimans that HAVE no drives. So then you end up with a GSD who can't work, a fear biting pit bull (truly scary), an obese Lab. And then people get shocked and outraged when suddenly BAM the dog acts like a dog...I really don't understand it.

Not making excuses for poor breeding. And sorry, I just hijacked your thread, for my soapbox! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Hi Trent. I really respect your opinions and concerns and would like to hve my defense attorney cross examine me now, ok? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

defense: What precautions do you take to make sure your dog is not a danger to other dogs?
me: I make sure to walk Gator in areas where we have only seen one other dog in 3 years. That was the day of the fight.

D: What areas are those?
ME: We go to the Percell house and walk behind the stucco wall that encloses the ruin. This is private property and I have Donnie's permission to go there. We walk at Devil's Corral Bridge behind the highway department fences and we walk along Riggins Logging Camp Road over 15 miles from town on isolated wilderness land with no residences within miles.

D: Why do you go to these out-of-way places? Is it because you know your dog is dangerous?
ME: I walk Gator there because just seeing another dog puts stress on him, and when Gator is stressed, he sometimes has horrible seizures where he loses control of his bladder, chews his tongue to ribbons, and has heart rhythm problems.

D: So you walk Gator in these places to protect HIM from other dogs' presence?
ME: Yes sir.

What do you think Trent? Should I keep my attorney?

Thanks again for the replies folks.

Not bad but bloody pictures makes a heck of a closing argument. Remember even if you win how much did your attorney cost? How much did your insurance rates go up? I bet a muzzle would have been alot cheaper.
Even if suit was not filed, you would still feel horrible that someone was injured by your dog. Not to mention your dog will then need to be put down.
I have been in your situation with a dog aggresive dog who loved people and it sucks but a muzzle makes life alot easier.

Trent,
Are you saying that any dog who has shown aggression to other dogs, regardless of circustance and instigator of aggression, should be muzzled to prevent a dog fight from an off leash dog?

Now I can see how a person would be negligent of their aggressive dog is off leash and bit anyone or anything. But how can you be negligent if you have your dog leashed, and is approached by an off leash dog, who does not respond to a verbal warning? And say 2 dogs do get into a fight, and other owner gets bitten. The fight wouldn't have happened in the first place had the other owner followed the leash laws.

Couldn't you say that their negligence in maintaining their dog on a leash contributed to the a actions in question and your stress and harm, and get the case dismissed? I just can't see how someone can contribute to someone else's negligence.

I can't tell ya'll how many times I have been in the middle of nowhere, and just blurt out a WTF to myself cuz out of nowhere in the middle of nowhere there where other humans with or without their dog(s) How dare them tresspass on my tranquility and enjoyment of being out in the middle of nowhere!! The point/fact is everyone has a right to be in the middle of nowhere and you just never know when you will come across someone (unless you are one of the lucky ones to have 200 acres of your own nowhere <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ). As was stated Michelle should work "gator" heavily in o/b Now we all know gator is dog aggressive and no muzzle, So gator should have been put into a down when the other dog was seen(in a perfect world would not break that down till told he could)then Michelle would have proceded to shoo the other dog away when it invaded her personal space(to be determined by her)As she now knows with pepper spray,stick,rock,bow and arrow <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> what ever.When untrained intruding dog has left gator is allowed to get up and once again enjoy the middle of nowhere <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

No one and especially not I was slamming you. This is a dog training forum and we is just pointing out some training errors <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> to help you be better dog trainer/owner.

I think most as I was responding to the fact gator is an apbt they have already been villified enough so I was like here we go another case for some dumb @$$ politician to jump on his platform for BSL and try to justify their term in office.

You LAWyers really want to go into court and try to convince a judge/jury that an APBT named "gator" is just a 50-70lb bundle of love and joy, Thanks to the press especially here in the US that tells the truth with all the facts :rolleyes: I think the majority of people already have their preconceptions of apbt and the people who have/love them.

I have been to court and didn't want to be there and won even counter sued those trying to sue me and won still didn't want to be there and don't want to go back!!! It's to unpredictable ..

Leash law !! No one would care about that. They would be and especially the press all over the fact that the incident envolved an apbt. Recent post about kid hops over fence lands on dog, dog bites kid. Dog and dog owner lose! Aren't there trespassing laws aren't parents responsible for their childerns actions Please don't get me wrong Melisa I am not trying to be contentuos but more trying to make a point. Mr.Will Rambeau explained it real good on a recent post Court is to unpredictable

Oh LoL anyways as was stated Michelle it is your post !