People asked me to clarify, so here are some details ...

I use "Yes" as the marker word. I use "No" when the command is not being done correctly

As many people have mentioned, I am indeed planning to use "Good" as a bridge marker, as the video suggests. I am however, not there yet.

As far as "charging" the marker, I did just what the video showed. I put a treat in my hand and when my dog looked up at me I said "Yes" and gave him the treat. I did this about 30 times for a couple of training sessions.

What I had originally asked is how to train a specific behavior without first introducing a command. How do I expect the dog to know how to initiate a behavior without first giving him the command to do so?

- Derek

Derek, the charging of the mark requires no action on the part of the dog for the mark/reward. "Look" is a common first action to m/r after charging the mark, though. JMO!

What I would want to see before moving beyond the charging phase is, when I give the marker, does the dog immediately look for the reward? THAT means to me that the connection between the marker and the reward has been made.




Your question: There's more than one way to capture and mark a wanted behavior.

For example, it's pretty simple to lure a dog into a sit, using a HV reward over the dog's head that causes the dog's butt to hit the ground, at which time I mark and reward.

Luring:
http://leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Board=134&Number=289140&Searchpage=7&Main=27017&Words=lure&topic=0&Search=true#Post289140

Free shaping:

http://leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Board=134&Number=323899&Searchpage=3&Main=29426&Words=shaping&topic=0&Search=true#Post323899

http://leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Board=134&Number=292711&Searchpage=4&Main=27249&Words=shaping&topic=0&Search=true#Post292711

http://leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Board=134&Number=292779&Searchpage=4&Main=27249&Words=shaping&topic=0&Search=true#Post292779


"Nope"

http://leerburg.com/flix/player.php?id=131

For me, the negative marker is very rare until the dog is thoroughly familiar with marker work and completely engaged and happy with the training. See the 3:20 mark for a great use of negative marker, a use that never diminishes the dog's drive.

I'd suggest training the sit by luring the dog into position with a treat in hand. Start the session with an "are you ready?" in a happy voice; starting each marker training session with this will train the dog to know when you say this, he is going into "working/training" mode and you'll find he will begin to get excited once everything clicks into place.

Assuming he is standing in front of you move your hand (with treat) over his head, toward his back - most likely his head is going to follow which will naturally put him into a sit. The moment his butt is firmly on the floor - not hovering - mark, pause a moment and reward. If he breaks the sit when you say "yes" that is okay - the mark is the release as well. If he doesn't move after being rewarded, you will have to get him to come to you or move so you can repeat.

To train the down, you would be luring by lowering the treat down and toward their chest/between front paws to get them to lay down.

Once your dog catches on to Marker training, as soon as you say "are you ready" he will get excited and most likely will begin offering behaviors begin immediately - it is so fun to see them anticipating!

Only train one behavior per session to get started; once he has a few under his belt and really understands the system, you can review a few known behaviors during the sessions. Frequent, short sessions throughout the day are preferable to fewer, longer sessions.

The best thing about Marker training is that even if you goof up and do something wrong or your timing is off - the worst that happens is you might have a confused dog who got treated at the wrong moment! Nothing negative happens to ruin your relationship with the dog!

Hope this helps!

Never mind - Connie has it all covered!! LOL!

Ah! Perfect, Barbara!

PS

"How do you get your dog to perform the action you want? I would imagine that you can't just wait for the dog to do what you want without giving it some command so it knows what to do. This is what confuses me about the video. It (the Leerburg video) specifically mentions not use a command until the dog has the behavior down first."

The dog doesn't speak human anyway. So "sit" to a dog who has not learned the command means nothing at all.

But if we lure (or capture in shaping) a sit and M/R, the dog is immediately aware of the connection between that action and the marker that meant "reward coming!"

If we don't name it until it's to our liking, then we avoid naming an action we don't want to ask for. That is, if we call it "sit" when it's still in a stage we don't like, then asking for a sit will be asking for something we don't want. If we name it when we love it, then that word, that name, will mean the action we want.


Your other question about marker training and SchH is a resounding YES! Maybe Bob Scott, whose dog Thunder was marker-trained all the way to SchH 3, will expound.

Have you seen the many free video clips here? Here's one page with several that might interest you, starting probably about the 12th one down:
http://leerburg.com/flix/searchresults.php?search=ellis&page=3

Derek, please post back if there's any lingering question.

I remember when marker training suddenly all came together for me ... I stumbled along for a while, and then one day (watching DVD 220, Power of Food), it all came together.

#219 gave me the mechanics and the foundation, and 220 opened the door for me onto the unlimited applications for marker training.

Now I have them all. LOL Still, I think that 220 was the one I referred to again and again more than any other.

Schutzhund training with markers is....well it's training with markers. All you doing is training different behaviors but the idea is the same.
A high drive dog that will do anything for it's reward is the same in Schutzhund, AKC obedience or just plain house manners.
Even the bite work is done with markers. The difference is that the bite is the reward.
Example;
My dog wants to bite the helper on the field but I want his attention on me before I send him for the bite.
The dog is at my side lunging and barking at the helper. The split second he looks at me (he will eventually out of frustration) I give a "yes" marker and send the dog for the bite.
From this,duration is worked on and the focused heeling and other behaviors are chained together before the mark and reward is given.
"IF" the dog understands the marker concept this wont take any longer then any other behavior your training. He knows what is required to get his reward.
It's not Schutzhund training, Competition OB training, or even basic house manners. It's just marker training for different behaviors and with different levels of distractions.

Barbara, i think my pup has mastered marker training she barks i get up to she what she wants usually a treat (lol) but not always today it was 45 min of swimming.she forgot her name, wouldn't come out. that's ok . ( in my younger days that would have been a big mistake) all kidding aside, she is doing well with marker training

Bob, in a few years they will program and implant a chip into the dog with the type behavior's we want. no need for training

John, that's just scary enough to have some truth to it.
I'm guessing it will be tried on us human folks first though.
You know......kind of a "test" to see if it works.