What about "shepherding" ability? Does anyone use GSDs on stock?
Did they herd, or gather, or drive historically? Or have GSDs been mostly a "police"/ "guard" or service breed since formal breeding selection has been going on?

 Quote: Betty Waldron

 Quote: Ramachandran Subramanian

I am talking about German show lines that are being imported into India. I understand that even the german show lines need to have working titles. So on paper they have working abilities.

No, not always. I've seen several imported show lines that are titled that I swear have never seen a sleeve before.

They do have to have titles in Germany but I think the trial they go to is a lot different then the ones I attend in this country. From what I understand a lot of them are held at midnight in the clubhouse.

Not sure how significant it is but I keep going back to sable is the dominant color for German Shepherds and when was the last time you saw a sable working line? In my mind that does show what the crux was for generations of breeding.

My observations are generalities only and I don't mean to insult anyone. I have seen some very nice show lines that I would feed and I think in the states at least there is a core group of show line breeders that is really trying to bring back some of the working ability.

I agree. There's a show line male in the club I'm joining that has better nerves than the imported working line SchH 3 male the owner also has. I've seen some nice show line dogs. They aren't as good as the solid working lines but there are show breeders here actively out there training Schutzhund.

I'm going to put Danni on sheep as soon as I scrounge up the extra time and money. It's really difficult for herding breeds to lose instinct, IMO. Unless they are backyard bred/pet store dogs. Those are the only dogs I've seen in person who lacked any herding instinct.

 Quote: katie finlay

I'm going to put Danni on sheep as soon as I scrounge up the extra time and money. It's really difficult for herding breeds to lose instinct, IMO. Unless they are backyard bred/pet store dogs. Those are the only dogs I've seen in person who lacked any herding instinct.

Yes and No. Herding drive is refined prey drive so in that sense it is fairly easy to retain. But it is easy to loose bits and pieces of the genetic puzzle if the dog is not specifically bred for it.

For instance my experience with Kipp and Kenzi

Kipp was bred for the job. He came from a working farm and his parents worked sheep and cattle. His second/third time on sheep he circled the flock, kept them together and balanced to the handler. It was pure genetics at work and it was amazing to see. I've just started woking him on sheep again after almost a year long break. By the end of the session a couple weeks ago he was balancing nicely, giving the sheep space and working with the trainer. Almost all genetics since his sessions on sheep have been very sporadic.

Kenzi came through rescue and I have no clue as to her background. She is drivey and has the BC crouch. I took her for a lesson the same time as Kipp a few weeks ago. (she'd been on sheep a couple of times before that, but not for the past 9-10 months). She was excited and pretty interested and by the end of the session she had sustained interest and was circling the sheep. But she is missing a few of the genetic pieces that Kipp has. I didn't see the seriousness for the job or the genetic "this is what I do" kick in, even thought she was interested and circling the sheep.

I think that Kenzi could be a decent chore dog with some work and I'll continue to work with her. She is pretty interested and responds well to the handler. And it could be that some things will kick in with more exposure. Right now it's an unknown.

But from the get go I could see that Kipp has the potential to be a "right hand" when it comes to chore work. He'd work his heart out and take on anything and not quit. The trainer said after working with him "you've got a lot of potential with this dog".

I was a little surprised Conan shows so much herding instinct because he doesn't have any working lines in him until his great great grandfather. The Schaferhaus Corgis were bred for both show and work but the lines are so far back they're not likely to have a huge influence.

And some dogs to retain good pieces of the puzzle without the best working lines.

My Missy was inbred as all get out on her mothers side - 4 generations and they all went back to the same two dogs and their names suggested that they were not selected for working ability. But she had nice working lines on her fathers side and she retained tons of great instint and stock sense. But it could have gone the other way, too.

Part two is how does the dog handle things when they get away from stock that is well dog broke? Well broke stock are needed for training, but can the keep it together and manage the stock when they move on to stock that isn't quite as used to being worked? Or do they need stock that is well broke to them to be able to work well? The problem I'm seeing as herding becomes more mainstream is that expectations of the dogs go down because they're not being used in the real world. It's expected that the stock be highly workable instead of the dog being able to handle a wide variety of situations with the stock.

I'm not saying that that is the case for you and Conan, Katie. It's just a general observation.

 Quote: betty landercasp

What about "shepherding" ability? Does anyone use GSDs on stock?
Did they herd, or gather, or drive historically? Or have GSDs been mostly a "police"/ "guard" or service breed since formal breeding selection has been going on?

Here's a good explanation of the "classic" HGH stile of herding the GSD was bred for.
My dog Thunder has his HT (herding tested)from the AKC.
He has a natural gather to me but being a GSD he can be more dog then the AKC wants to see in a trial situation. He's more then willing to grip and toss the sheep to control them.
perfectly accetable in HGH work but the AKC is looking for Border collie type work.
AHBA is more about seeing the natural dog work as opposed to a lot of mechanical placement as seen in a lot of AKC.
HGH herding in the USA is on the East coast, the West coast and some in Co. Hard to find in the Midwest!

Yes, there are a lot of true sheep herding GSDs still working in the german hinter land ( I was told).

Searched for a video and found one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWBEyqFcN5A

 Quote: Mara Jessup

And some dogs to retain good pieces of the puzzle without the best working lines.

My Missy was inbred as all get out on her mothers side - 4 generations and they all went back to the same two dogs and their names suggested that they were not selected for working ability. But she had nice working lines on her fathers side and she retained tons of great instint and stock sense. But it could have gone the other way, too.

Part two is how does the dog handle things when they get away from stock that is well dog broke? Well broke stock are needed for training, but can the keep it together and manage the stock when they move on to stock that isn't quite as used to being worked? Or do they need stock that is well broke to them to be able to work well? The problem I'm seeing as herding becomes more mainstream is that expectations of the dogs go down because they're not being used in the real world. It's expected that the stock be highly workable instead of the dog being able to handle a wide variety of situations with the stock.

I'm not saying that that is the case for you and Conan, Katie. It's just a general observation.

All this makes me want to put Conan on sheep again.

 Quote: Bob Scott

perfectly accetable in HGH work but the AKC is looking for Border collie type work.
AHBA is more about seeing the natural dog work as opposed to a lot of mechanical placement as seen in a lot of AKC.

One of the huge fallacies in AKC trials is that they lump all the herding breeds together and judge them by one standard - which tends to be rather low to accommodate the widest variety of breeds.

Tending breeds can be trained to handle it, but it's not really using their natural abilities.

Border Collies can run them fine, but a well bred BC is capable of much more and should be a thinking worker rather than a mechanical one. When I was first getting started with Missy in stockwork, one of the trainers I went to handed me a copy of the AKC rules for herding competitions. I read through it and realized that my mostly untrained dog could probably handle the first level or two.

IMO, The breeds need to be tested and evaluated for working ability based on the merits of the breed and by someone who understands what good work for the breed means. HGH for GSDs, AHBA for aussies and the like and USBCHA for BCs.