I will say this, there are not many people that can train like Kaltenbach. He can put pressure on a dog, and I will tell you, he knows how. I have not seen any dog that he showed that looked like Raisers dog. Kaltenbach, put aside what anyone thinks of him, is still one of the best trainers around in anytime. He has a new dog now that he is scoring very well with, that he trained from a pup. He can take different dogs that have different temperments, and get them working to a level that most cannot.

I have not seen anyone really that is not from the old school, have the sucess in Germany that Beiler and Kaltenbach have had over the years today. These guys took many different dogs and competed with them, and placed very high, on different occassions. This is rarley seen today.

To say how much better Jobe's dog looked; great, but that dog never could have made it to the level it had, unless it had had that training from Fritz. The same goes for the vast majority of the Gottfried coached dogs - they were trained in an entirley different fashion then the methods he promotes, by Edgar K. and then promoted as being trained with food. It is mis-leading.

Do not get me wrong, the food did bring some of these dogs out, but they never would have made it most likley if they did not have the training before.

Where are these people now? They have (most of them) purchased dogs and tried to train them using the Gottfried method, only never to reach the sucess that they did before.......HHMMMMMM

The only guy that is popular that uses alot of motivation and gets results is Bernhard. Againt hough there is some compulsion in his program from what i have been told. And he has some proof of his training. He does not claim he trained a dog that was trained by someone else.

Steve C. I now fully underatand where you are coming from. It is an effective way in training that has real proven results.

While I am not impressed with what Raiser has done in ob. I underatand where you are coming from.

You say Fritz is not winning; He trained Fratz - Cathy Jobe, 2nd in the world twice, Rex - Dean, national winner and Harry - Gary's new dog, soon to be a national winner. For someone who is not winning, the dogs he trains wins at many "nationals and world" events. I have never said these guys would not have any problems by taking it too far. But after someone else has done the pressure, it is normally easier for someone else to relieve the pressure. Do you think there was no conflict when training these dogs, just happy ball training?

" Watch the winner's routine, Xanto Karthago. He got a 98. The dog was very correct, methodical, medium spirited. But look at his ears folded back most of the time, the way he carries his tail....The trainer must have used pressure to train these exercises, and the dog shows it! The very next routine is Jurgen Strassen with Aly St. Wildener-Land: Got a 98 also, but this dog BOUNCES, PRANCES, tail wagging wildly; the dog is GLUED to the handler at all times, with his head riveted to the handler's face. Ears are straight up, tail wagging....the judge remarks that this dog is truly happy and is an example of what he looks for."




Did you say this Xanto Karthago won. That would mean the happy dog did not, even though they received the same obedience score. Obedience is a part of all three phases, not just the heeling and dumbells. Perhaps when he gets it together in all phases he will win. Trying to compare the 1990 BSP to the 2000 BSP is like stepping way back in time. The dogs and trainers are different.

And I have seen these guys obedience for the last five years, it was when I watched the BSP tapes, nationals. I did not get to watch them at their club trials. They were at their respective nationals after competing at the levels to get there. And I do agree that the dogs look under pressure, tremendous pressure at times, maybe they went to far. After all, you are talking about trainers that look for a lot more than we do. What we think is correct, they think is incorrect.

I have noticed that almost each post refers to compulsion as either avoidance training or beating the dog up or knuckle dragging. I think beating the dog up is no more than just plain dominance. No different than beating him up in the other two phases. This type of training will never win.

What I thought we were talking about was getting the dog to a level of pressure that he is both correct and assertive about the exercises. Not a dog that looks depressed and sad and lagging and ears down and crapping on the field, etc. I want to see the dog with some attitude when he heels, pushes in the about and right turns. Comes fast in the recalls and grabs the dumbell with some intensity. Not a robot, not a depressed beaten up dog, and not the dog that heels going down the field thinking who has the ball.

It was just a question to a thought!

Well, I see we have got one of my favorite topics going. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Here is my question, and it is a good one, what is this thread about? Who's who of trainers and their methods? I could care less. Lets get this thread on track and direct it to some specific training.

I'd like to hear from Scott exactly how he trains and the results it gives him. Any dogs that you have trained winning with your training methods? How do you specifically use these methods to train. . .say. . .in heeling? That would be a worthwhile thread, at least people could understand exactly what you are talking about.

This argument about who does this and who does that is stupid.

Originally posted by VanCamp:
Well, I see we have got one of my favorite topics going. You don't like it, drop out!

Originally posted by VanCamp:
Here is my question, and it is a good one, what is this thread about? Who's who of trainers and their methods? I could care less. Lets get this thread on track and direct it to some specific training. Actually, it IS pretty much on track. The topic was use of aggression in obedience and that required some examples for clarification, then there was some challenge to those examples. What's your problem with it?

As for Michael Rivers' point about using PURELY positive training, I don't know anyone who thinks they train that way. What style is winning? The middle of the road mix of high prey attraction to get speed, attitude and attention combined with avoidance conditioning to proof it for reliability.

I finally got it (I hope <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> )! I could not understand what is the point about handler agression towards his own dog and now i recall how during our group training some time ago we had a dog that was PERFECT in obedience and even then was being harshly corrected as it was not perfect enough for his owner. Sure the dog hated the whole world and first of all the handler but as he was too afraid of the owner he channeled all his frustration towards the helper. He was awsome in protection work, poor creature...
Is this what this thread is about? I am just a beginner...

SCH3FH Wrote:

As for Michael Rivers' point about using PURELY positive training, I don't know anyone who thinks they train that way. What style is winning? The middle of the road mix of high prey attraction to get speed, attitude and attention combined with avoidance conditioning to proof it for reliability.

Michael Writes:

I agree in part. The winners in alot of the cases are using alot of avoidence training to lay the foundation. Sure there is attraction, but there is a bit more avoidence invovled in the first few stages. We then end up at the road you described.

As far as using the fun, fun way all the way; there are a ton of people that are convinced that this is what has produced winners and are following suit. You may not know many, but I know a few that are taking this route. ALl though in all fairness it is loosing popularity.

 Quote:

Originally posted by VanCamp:
Well, I see we have got one of my favorite topics going. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Here is my question, and it is a good one, what is this thread about? Who's who of trainers and their methods? I could care less. Lets get this thread on track and direct it to some specific training.

I'd like to hear from Scott exactly how he trains and the results it gives him. Any dogs that you have trained winning with your training methods? How do you specifically use these methods to train. . .say. . .in heeling? That would be a worthwhile thread, at least people could understand exactly what you are talking about.

This argument about who does this and who does that is stupid.

Maybe you should read through it again. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />