Begleithund.

Just put "schutzhund" and "BH" into google and you'll find sites that describe the exercises.

So the "traffic steady" dog test became a "companion dog" title in the eyes of SchH USA? Guess they have to "americanize" everything.


By VDH rules, it's a certificate. And in the rules, it always mentions that a dog needs to pass the BH "test" ( their exact words ) to pass forward to the next step of VPG or FH trials.
Maybe we're just arguing about bad translations, but I'm going with what I've read and been taught for the past two decades.
And I'll go with what the vast majority of the SchH world goes by, unless it's been changed and I was napping..... ( always possible <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> )

There are reasons to do a CGC when you have GSDs and live in a populated area. Like when the neighbors complain about potentially vicious dogs you wave the CGC instead of the Schh3 certificate at the Animal Control guy! And now, AKC is tightening up on the testers in an effort to give the certificate more credibility in conjunction with certain insurance carriers for homeowners insurance. Nationwide is one carrier who is giving dispensations on certain breeds if they have the CGC. I do this, and have done it, on all my dogs, just for that reason.

My schutzhund dogs all pass this with no problems with very little preparation. Of course, I do AKC obedience as well - indoor accessibility in bad weather for training!! And the dogs learn to focus under extreme distractions as well.

As far as looking at websites, and breeding programs....there are ALOT of people who have bred dogs with nothing more than a BH!!!! Even people who are respected on this board. The litters I see posted as upcoming on the titon site are with titled females and males which look to be pretty decently bred and who have credentials. I don't see the BH male being bred at all. And I believe that only in the last year or so are there clubs springing up in that area.

Everyone starts somewhere, and the dogs are training. I bought a pup out of a Ufo daughter this summmer who only had a BH in Belgium....then bought the female, had teh 1 done, and she is still in Belgium and will come over here koered and with a Schh3. Just no room for her, or I would bring her and train her myself, but with 4 dogs to train now, including a pup from her, and a bonuse being that the female is being trained in an outstanding situation, this worked. The female was bred with a BH to see if she would produce.

Anyway, I will run Csabre and Danger through the CGC this spring - we will run these at our schutzhund club too, makes a little contribution to the club treasury.

Lee Hough

If the dog is a badass and only has a BH, breed the -F-er.

To damn many people breed titled dogs that suck.

So glad someone see's the truth, I can't agree more.

WOW! A great deal of this thread seems a whole lot like a tempest in a teacup to me! And to think it's all over a CGC test question! YIKES! BTW, the CGC is a certificate - it is not a title. I believe that questions was asked, but I'm not sure it was answered.

Perhaps my understanding of the intent and purpose of the CGC test is incorrect (highly possible! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ) but I believe it's purpose is simply to provide a basic test for dog owners to show that they have worked with their dogs enough to make them well behaved enough to be safely out in public. Also, it brings people in to the world of dog showing at a level that is reachable for most - even without lots of training/showing experience. These are both good things!

When my pup passed the CGC test (at 5 mos 1 day) he "failed" the first time around on the portion where the dog is left with a stranger and the handler leaves the area. NO, he wasn't whining, barking, crying, etc. The evaluator failed him because he "wouldn't settle or relate to the holder". Well, he's a Malinois - they aren't big on striking up acquaintances with strangers. He accepted the stranger holding the leash and didn't pull or fight against it, but he did go to the far end to sit and moved back and forth "Staring constantly at the door that I had exited" (evaluator said he wasn't pacing, but didn't settle enough in her opinion). To make a long story short, they allowed us to retest and this time I simply put my pup on a down/stay when I left. We passed. He didn't move away from the stranger and he didn't move around on the line - what he did was hold his down/stay - the evaluator was happy and he has his CGC.

Do I brag on the accomplishment? Your darned right I do - I'm proud that the pup was able to do all the tasks at his age. Is this the end of the training for him? Of course not! We are heading for OTCH. Also working on tracking - want to pick up his tracking titles with AKC. I see the CGC passing as simply a step along the way to our goal . . . but you know, it's impossible to get to the final goal without all the small steps to take you there.

Am concerned/confused over a remark about dogs with high drive NOT being able to pass a CGC and that they shouldn't! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Ummm, wait a minute here - my husband is retired military (MP)and had a German Shepherd trained for drug detection and crowd control. This boy was bred, trained and worked in Germany - he had DRIVE. In his duties as a police dog he was called on any number of times and there were individuals that went to the hospital as a result of it. BUT, he would heel through a crowd of people, could be approached by strangers (people coming up to speak to my husband), and was petted by children at the beer fests . . . all without being aggressive or a bad a@@. Aren't these basically the behaviors that the CGC is requiring? Why is it considered "unnecessary" for a working dog to stay "chilled out" when the situation calls for it? Is someone saying that a "true" working dog is always so aggressive and driven that it's beneath them to walk unmuzzled through a crowd? If so, then perhaps there is something wrong with their picture. A dog should work when asked; it should also be able to turn it off when asked . . . in my opinion! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I digressed - sorry. The whole point I wanted to make is that the CGC is great for what it is - for some people it's the final goal that they are working for and THAT'S okay, too! Not everyone that owns a dog wants an OTCH dog, or a trained tracking dog, or an attack dog, or an agility dog or . . . .

Deb,
All your remarks are about my posts, so I'll reply here.
You have your opinion, and I have mine. And as I've said to other people in other threads before, your idea of what drive may be and mine are likely two different things. You compete in a sport ( Rally ) that requires a more social dog that needs to get along with other dogs and people. Some of my dog sports don't require that as strongly, and I will only own dogs that will defend their owners in a real world encounter, so our requirements are *vastly* different. My dogs could not do what your dog does, and your dog could not do what I require of mine - different owners with different needs. For instance, I tend to loathe children - I have no social contact with them, and since I don't feel comfortable around them due to their chaotic behavior, I prevent my dog from having contact with them. Safer for us both.

I guess one of the big problems I have with the CGC is that you see so many substandard dogs being advertised for breeding or sale with this "title" predominately displayed after the dogs name - I view that as kind of false advertising done to impress the clueless. If the dog has real titles, you'd see those being advertised. If you don't see them, there's a reason for that, and the reason is usually that the dog is nothing special, to be polite.

And Deb, where did you get the idea that anyone here has said :
Deb quote: " Are you saying that a "true" working dog is always so aggressive and driven that it's beneath them to walk unmuzzled through a crowd? If so, then perhaps there is something wrong with their picture"
Ummm....hello, do you know what a BH involves? Or any SchH routine? We heel our dogs through groups of people, both on and off leash, and amazingly, the dogs aren't muzzled! :rolleyes:
Our dogs are tested to a much higher degree of social tolerance than is required for AKC obedience. Just compare the "long down exercise" of a SchH routine vs. how the AKC does things to see my point there.

"A dog should work when asked; it should also be able to turn it off when asked . . . in my opinion! "
I find this to be very, very rare. My observation has been, that when owners say this, their dog actually never "turns on" to a degree that I'd want to work with. Again, different people have different views of what "drive" is.
And that's my opinion.

Hi Will!

I enjoyed your reply, thanks for taking time to repond. I'm the first to say I don't know much of anything about the Schutzhund stuff <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> ! Your response helped quite a bit to educate me. What my concern was over, and where the confusion came in, was when taking several of the comments together (various posts) it appeared that the more of a "badass" the dog is the better - regardless of titles, or seemingly, anything else!

Am simply thinking that if a dog (schutzhund trained or otherwise)cannot pass the basic requirements of a CGC test, then something is amiss with their basic temperament or training (or both!) My comment, that you quoted, regarding walking unmuzzled through a crowd wasn't drawn from a post directly - it's the image that conjured up in my mind based on comments made from various posts. The thought progression went something like this: if a schutzhund trained dog couldn't/shouldn't pass a CGC; if the bigger a badass the dog is the better; if it's actually a liability for one to have passed a CGC type test . . . well, I'm envisioning dogs that are too aggressive and out of control to even walk around unmuzzled!

Am still a bit confused about why one of the schutzhund tested dogs that are "tested to a much higher degree of social tolerance than is required for AKC" wouldn't be able to pass the simple CGC. Not that it matters, it just seems like a conflict! Take the reverse scenario; if someone were saying that because my dog has passed the CGC does not mean he can automatically become a schutzhund dog I would totally agree! Being able to pass CGC does NOT mean the drive/ability is there to go schutzhund (or anything else for that matter <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> ). But based on what you are saying about testing for social tolerance for schutzhund dogs, it just seems like they should breeze right through a CGC (and from what some of the posts say - they can/and have!) See where the confusion came from?

Please remember that the only "reference point" I really have for police dogs (real life working dogs) are those that worked with my husband's MP unit in Germany. Again, his dog Max was a real SOB when it was called for, but he was kid safe at the fests - so were the others (except for one :rolleyes: ).

By the way, I agree with you 100% on the idea of folks advertising dogs with a "CGC Title" as part of the advertising. It's false advertising all right - the CGC is NOT a title!

Anyway, going clear back to the start of this thread . . . Stacie I wish you the best of luck with your GSD! I'm betting a lot of the "problems" you mentioned that she has right now will self correct - she sounds like she is being a puppy! Maybe we'll bump in to one another someday at an obedience competition!

Deb,
The comparison of a CGC test vs. a SchH routine ( darn it, I wish that you had already seen one, it'd be a lot more clear to you here ) is more about control and less about tolerance, maybe.

For instance, there are two dogs on the field during SchH OB, one dog doing the pattern, jumps, retrieve, etc., with the other dog doing the long down. This illustrates the level of control needed for SchH, which is pretty impressive.

However, a judge may not touch my dog if I don't want them to. At the start of the routine, a pair of handlers go up to the judge and shake hands with him or her, while their dog are in heel position. The judge may request to see the dog's tattoo, but again, they won't touch your dog if you request for them not to. The "meet & greet" portion of the CGC is a little like this, but it's done for a longer period with more control in SchH.

My dog would never tolerate a stranger for the CGC portion that tested the dog being handed off to a stranger and you leaving. He doesn't like strangers ( and I don't require him to ) and I wouldn't put someone in that dangerous of a situation ( except for maybe Old Earth Dog Scott <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> ) . And I can off- hand think of dozens of SchH titled dogs that would react in much the same fashion.

Temperament is in the eyes of the beholder. I both desire and need a dog that will actually defend me when needed, no questions asked, and I know that the vast majority of dogs simply won't do so. And I consider dogs that won't protect their owners as flawed. The AKC and the American public have bred dogs to become cutesy little puff balls that love everyone, and the public then views dogs that have maintained what the GSD was originally bred for as being "sharp" or having a bad temperament.
*Sigh*

I hope this clears up where I'm coming from.

Hey there Will! Clear as mud! LOL! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Just kidding - I understand now what you are saying and do appreciate your time in educating a non-schutzhund person, such as myself! Appreciate you! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />