Well he regained his desire to drink water. He stopped quivering. But at 1am he vomited up his kibble. Looked the same way it did when he ate it. Undigested and smelled like feces. He breath was horrible as well. That's 8 hours after he ate. Then he was going out and it was raining and dark so very hard to see if he was popping the runs or nothing at all. He went out several times and to several areas. And he hates the rain so I knew he needed to go awful bad to spend as much time as he did out there. This morning I called out of work. He pooped straight water. Took him in and got an xray. No blockage. Just severe GI upset. So they are keeping him a few hours and giving him subq fluids. I'm just a minute up the street so this worked out better for eveyone and i wont get charged hospitalization fees. He still is not lethargic acting. Just seemingly more tired than normal. I suppose chicken just isn't going to work for him. I'm certainly going to allow a long period of time to pass before considering even THK for now. I think I might even wait until he is a year old just to be on the safe side so I'm not messing up the nutrients he needs as a growing puppy. I just want what's best for him.

On another note. How do you feel about PRIME? There is a place here that does not carry it in stock but will order it. Seems reasonably priced. There are grinds, mixes, and meals. They are going to look into THK for me too for pricing. This of course is just for my research and consideration for the future.

If i vaccum seal the meats I paid for that will come in friday how long will they be good for? The box on the foodsaver says you can store meats for a year with their airtight seal.

Another question.
I know you don't recommend mixing kibble with raw meat. Is it a no no to do say a morning kibble meal but raw feed in the evening? And for next time that means feeding THK or PRIME in the evening since I wpuld start slow like that.

Also I think I will grind the RMB if I try this again. Just in the begining so I don't have to worry about major blockages and can better detect upset vs blockage bc ill know thw bone was ground properly. Then once I know he is transitioned I will feed the RMBs.

What do you think about that?

I wouldn't even consider feeding this dog a kibble-raw combo. I don't do it, period, but with this dog, even more so. I would not do it.

I'll find you some links after I do some work.

What is the reason the vet gives for vomitus that smells like feces?


PS
I'm really relieved he's getting sub-Q. You must be too. Poor little guy.

I found some very quickly after all:

http://leerburg.com/webboard/thread.php?topic_id=30882&page=3#344410

http://leerburg.com/webboard/thread.php?topic_id=26399&page=1#278889

http://leerburg.com/webboard/thread.php?topic_id=32920&page=1#370368


And on the Leerburg main board, Cindy advises against combining:

"I personally don’t feel combining raw and kibble is OK and many dogs have digestive upsets when RMBs and kibble are mixed together."

"I know you don't recommend mixing kibble with raw meat. Is it a no no to do say a morning kibble meal but raw feed in the evening? And for next time that means feeding THK or PRIME in the evening since I would start slow like that."


THK (dehydrated food) does not fall into the "don't mix" category. Any food-borne pathogens its raw meat may have had have been destroyed at low temps.



PS
Please keep us posted on the puppy's recovery.

Thank you. I'll check those links out.

When I go back to pick him up I will chat more with my vet. They worked us in the minute I called to say I was on my way and I know whats its like to be the person that got cut in front of and has somewhere to be so I decided to not take her time right then.

So keel in mind I have not had a chance to check those links out yet but when I did the switch to raw the first time he went unfed (over evening and delayed breakfast a few hours) for 15 hours. After his first chicken meal he had that awful green runny poop and left over kibble log from dinner I would think as well. That makes me think he would still have gotten where his is now feeding chicken raw. So I want to make sure I understand this right. If I do THK for a while and then make the switch to raw from that it would or should be easier for transition over to raw versus straight to raw from kibble? For later down the road of course.

And you may still be replying so if by the time I post this and you have replied sorry for the repeat...what's your thought on PRIME? Would that be okay to do before going to cuts of chicken or something. Or you think THK needs to be the starting source.

I don't know Prime. Link?

I don't totally understand the question there ..... is it that there was no raw and kibble in the system together?

Even if that was (or was not) the case, I'd probably forget about raw for a while with him. (I mean raw-raw. I never mean dehydrated foods when I say raw.)

Regardless of what caused this severe GI problem, I wouldn't put food-borne pathogens in there because I'd consider his gut to be (for lack of a better term) compromised.

THK (all dehydrated) is not raw in the sense of still having raw-borne pathogens, but it's not cooked like kibble.

If this were my dog, and I had to choose what to do now, and if money wasn't too tight, it would probably be THK with add-ins of lightly poached meat (only up to the package limits). I might mix it up (meaning add variety) with some good (5-star) canned foods. All of these are better than kibble, IMO, if you can afford this.

It would be a while (maybe months) before I'd try raw again, and it would be a peeled back, one snack, poops watched before continuing with any additional raw. (Raw digests very quickly; anyway, you could add that snack-back to dehydrated or canned. It's raw and kibble that cause the trouble when combined.)

Raw is not right for every single dog alive, and for me that includes a dog with this kind of GI illness. (One of my own granddogs is on permanent home-cooked, in fact, after a bout of extremely bad salmonella illness from a big ol' bite of rancid roadkill.)

I'd go very carefully with this guy.

A couple of questions from earlier:
How do you feel about PRIME? There is a place here that does not carry it in stock but will order it. Seems reasonably priced. There are grinds, mixes, and meals.

Sounds like raw. I would not choose raw at this time with this dog.

If i vaccum seal the meats I paid for that will come in friday how long will they be good for? The box on the foodsaver says you can store meats for a year with their airtight seal.

Oh, yes, I agree with this. You have a separate freezer (not the frozen-food compartment on the fridge)?

I know you don't recommend mixing kibble with raw meat. Is it a no no to do say a morning kibble meal but raw feed in the evening?

I don't do this. With this dog, I would say no to this. JMO.

I agree with Connie...it would be a very long time before I'd put this dog on raw again. Maybe not ever.

If THK is too pricey...I'd consider a cooked diet..the next best thing to a raw diet IMO.

I know someone who had worked out a great cooked diet for her dog. My main computer is down...so I can't access it..but I will contact her & see if she still has the info for her diet if you are interested.

Thanks to you both. In the future he will be on a home cooked diet. Hopefully not for some time. It all depends on his PKD and how his kidneys do with it. For now his kidneys are healthy except for the cyst. They are not compromised yet. It is a slow progressing disease.

I have no intentions on doing raw ANYTIME soon. He would be an adult before I did this again and Im not sure I will even actually do raw. I may do cooked meats. Home diet will be better than the Rx kibble when things advance. Mary Strouss has been talking to me for future kidney things so Im square in that dept.

I think my dog just is not one that will ever be able to do raw. I wouldnt ever dare dream of it with him after this is if was not for fact of needing to home cook. But COOK now will be the key word. I will boil chicken and go by the phosphorus guide and stuff when the time comes. Right now not an issue and no kidney dysfunction.

Thank you all for your help. For now I am just going back to his Orijen Large Breed Puppy. He has never had a problem with it. If it is not broke dont fix it right. And of course when they kidneys call for a change then a change will be made

Orijen is the only kibble I would feed if I HAD to feed a kibble diet.