 Re: How do you end your training session?
[Re: Lee_Reicheld ]
#377501 - 05/07/2013 11:54 AM |
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Now I'm getting seriously confused. The dog isn't outing when you tell him to and you're giving him the option of deciding when he's willing to give up the toy? And 'once inside he'll still be tugging like crazzy' with WHO exactly? He can't tug with himself. You told him the game is done and you're still letting him manipulate you into what HE wants?
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Re: How do you end your training session?
[Re: SamanthaTopper ]
#377504 - 05/07/2013 12:01 PM |
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Now I'm getting seriously confused. The dog isn't outing when you tell him to and you're giving him the option of deciding when he's willing to give up the toy? And 'once inside he'll still be tugging like crazzy' with WHO exactly? He can't tug with himself. You told him the game is done and you're still letting him manipulate you into what HE wants?
Is this directed at one of my posts Samantha? If so I don't know why... I don't have any of those issues. He outs like a champ, as I said earlier thanks to the Michael Ellis tug video. It doesn't matter if it's a tug, the sleeve, a stick, etc... when I give him his out he outs immediately and cleanly.
When I let him carry the tug inside as a reward for a good training session, if I then grab it to play with him until I can steal it, he is tugging with me. Since I am the only person living in the house. 
I have never, ever told him the game is done and continued to let him tug. The only time he has ever gotten the "all done!" command is after I was able to steal the tug away from him.
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Re: How do you end your training session?
[Re: Lee_Reicheld ]
#377508 - 05/07/2013 12:28 PM |
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Lee, I think one of the confusing things you're saying is that you have to steal the tug, yet the dog has a clean out. You did say that he will continue to try to play tug after he brings the tug inside, and I'm not sure I understand why there is drama around taking the tug away if the dog has a clean out.
There were several prior posts that have key info. The session ends outside, when I quit tugging, and give a done command. Then the dog is allowed to bring the tug inside (possess her quarry, carry her kill away) as part of prey promotion. When she gets inside, before she can make off with the prey, I have her out it. I don't reward her or bribe her to take the tug away. As Steve said, when I out the tug, that's it.
You will not conflict him with the out command, if it is solid.
Sadie |
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Re: How do you end your training session?
[Re: Lee_Reicheld ]
#377511 - 05/07/2013 12:48 PM |
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Thanks Duane. When I have posted about "stealing" the tug, that means I will try to slip it out of his mouth sideways or yank it out from the front if he tries to get chewy on it. This is never done in conjunction with an out command.
His out is very solid. I was thinking it might become less solid if he associated the out with ending his fun (putting the tug away and ending the session after an out). I can see that's not the case, so a good end to our sessions would be:
1) Having a good end to the training (great platz, etc.)
2) Paying him with the tug, then let him carry it inside.
3) Once inside, give the out.
4) After the out, the "all done" is given.
5) Praise him for a job well done.
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Re: How do you end your training session?
[Re: Lee_Reicheld ]
#377514 - 05/07/2013 01:18 PM |
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JMO, IMHO, ending the seesion outside might quell some of that desire to tug (or play keep away) once inside. As Sam pointed out earlier, usually the game is aready over when the dog carries the prey away, and the fight drive is starting to wane. In the dog's mind, he's already won.
The way I do it is more similar to this...
1) Having a good end to the session.
2) Let the dog win the tug.
3) Give the command "we're done".
4) Let him carry it inside.
5) Once inside, give the out.
6) Praise him for a job well done.
Sadie |
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Re: How do you end your training session?
[Re: Lee_Reicheld ]
#377517 - 05/07/2013 01:18 PM |
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That sounds perfect... thanks Duane!
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Re: How do you end your training session?
[Re: Lee_Reicheld ]
#377538 - 05/08/2013 12:25 PM |
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The idea of having to steal the tug from the dog/snatch it from him is what confuses me. If the dog has a solid out then why isn't he outing? Why are you having to be sneaky about removing the toy from his possession? Why ARE you snatching and stealing? What was the original point to doing it?
Now that you've clarified some things I kind of understand where you're coming from, and what you were searching for here, but your previous training behavior DID confuse me. You don't need to answer the questions unless you feel like it. The answers really have no bearing on this thread.
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Re: How do you end your training session?
[Re: Lee_Reicheld ]
#377547 - 05/08/2013 02:02 PM |
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I guess my wording was probably confusing. I think I combined some sentences that should have been kept separate.
I only steal the tug when he gets distracted by a bird, random furry critter, noise, etc. if he lets up on the tug. I am trying to encourage a firm, full bite. By stealing it I am trying to teach him that if he slacks up at all, he's going to lose the tug. I don't do this when he is just re-adjusting his grip when he gets the tug kind of crooked on the first bite... just when I feel his attention is slipping.
His outs are very clean. I trained him with the techniques from Michael Ellis as well as my Schutzhund trainer. He's only 12 months old and does it perfectly! He's a smart boy.
I've used Duane's routine last night and this morning, and he seems to be just fine with it. I was worried he might start jumping up or going bananas, or even outing slow if he thought the session might be over, but nope... he seems to be good with it so far!
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Re: How do you end your training session?
[Re: Lee_Reicheld ]
#377573 - 05/08/2013 10:44 PM |
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"By stealing it I am trying to teach him that if he slacks up at all, he's going to lose the tug.
My concern with this is the fact that he gets distracted then his drive for the tug isn't that strong.
For all the clean outs you get from him I don't see any issue with using the "out" command when you finish with him. The percentage of good ones wont let the one where he gets nothing back contaminate the good ones. Make sense?
old dogs LOVE to learn new tricks |
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Re: How do you end your training session?
[Re: Lee_Reicheld ]
#377584 - 05/09/2013 08:39 AM |
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That does make sense, thanks Bob. It definitely takes some major distraction for him to loosen his grip at all, it happens very rarely. It used to happen much more often when he was younger (he's only 12 months old right now) at training with other dogs and people around him.
I've continued to use Duane's routine last night and this morning, and he continues to do great.
Thanks again!
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