Quote: Bob Scott

The post Connie referred to is excellent advice.
If the "Come" command isn't solid the the dog shouldn't be off the leash, even in your own yard if you plan on calling him. If your just sitting in the yard and the dog comes to you without a command it's still reward worthy.
"Come" should be the most exciting and happiest command a dog can hear and have the best reward available.
Every single time your dog refuses a command of any sort it only teaches it that the command can be ignored. Never allow that to happen!
Marker train!

Sorry, I didn't know there were replies.

Yes, Connie did a very good job explaining, I had no more questions lol

I've been doing it the way she said it and so far so good.

He's always on a long leash at the park (it's not a dog park, just a large park with off leash hours after 9pm. We stay away from everyone and play and train.

I have a question abt something you said though. I know that every time a dog refuses a command it only teaches him commands can be ignored. But then what do I do?

That's the reason I posted, I'm not sure what to do when he doesn't listen so I thought I had to correct.

And I am marker training.

Thank you

 Quote: Duane Hull

Hi, Natalie. Connie is doing a good job at guiding you. I did note a couple of things that, IMHO, shouldn't be overlooked.

1. Motivated returns are much quicker and more enthusiastic than compulsive returns. For that reason, I train the recall with markers, and I NEVER pull the dog back to me.
* You can increase motivation and compliance by adjusting the timing of the mark. At first, mark as soon as the dog turns to you. Once he consistently complies, withhold the mark until he gets closer or until his attention wavers, and use that mark to increase his enthusiasm to get to you. By increasing the delay, you can eventually add other behaviors to the end of the original "come".

2. I was trying to teach my dog an auto-sit at the door, thinking that she knew the behavior and that she should know she had to sit. If I waited, she sat, just as you described your dog. However, I found the problem was me; I was doing exactly what you say in this quote.

 Quote: Natalie Rynda

also, sometimes, VERY RARELY, i don't make him sit (if there's a dog outside, or neighbors, or i have heavy large garbage bags in my hands)

What I have found is that I can't expect her to automatically perform a behavior if I'M not consistent with showing her what I want.

Hi))))
1. I pulled him back (reeled him in I think it's called, Connie said) because, as Bob said, dogs should never be allowed to ignore a command. I find myself confused about what to do when he doesn't listen. I know I should set him up for success and I try but it's not always possible.

I'd like to understand how non compliance should be handled in the learning stage.

And thank you for the suggestions, I will start over and will mark the slightest movements.

However, I started doing it as Connie said, from a foot away and backing away from him and he comes every time so I just mark once I stop backing away.
Should I keep doing that and save marking slightest movements once I increase the distance?


2. I don't expect him to sit without me asking, it's just cute to see him do it sometimes, so I don't say anything and wait. But most of the time I do.
However, the times he's distracted and doesn't sit I'm not sure what to do. So I always do something different and I'm sure it's not helping anything (sometimes I repeat SIT until he sits, others I will pop the leash lightly, others I will make him sit).

One more thing. In the quote Connie posted about proofing it says something like 'if he makes mistakes go back to previous steps'


OK, I get that but do I just let the mistakes go? But then this goes against what Bob and many others said, that if a dog gets away with not complying then he learns he doesn't have to comply.

What am I missing?
How is non compliance handled in learning stage?

1. When Bob says not to teach the dog that compliance is optional, he meant (I believe) that you do NOT use your recall if you have any doubt at all about compliance and cannot back it up (long line). NEVER use a questionable recall if the dog can non-comply and you cannot back it up. If you have used your recall (called the dog) and the dog was in favor of AND ABLE TO ignore you, then you screwed up. You have now taught the dog that the recall is optional.

Don't let that situation arise. Doubts? Then the dog is on a long line. Doubts indoors? Go get him; don't call.

2. Keep proofing your commands. The dog is not refusing in the learning/teaching stage ... he doesn't understand or he is distracted.

IMO, these are your major focuses right now.

About corrections: You are not there!



A dog who doesn't know the command ... including thorough proofing .... is not a dog who should be corrected.


A correction is for non-compliance with a KNOWN (including proofing every way you can) command.



Reeling in the dog (for the recall) is not a correction. But if you had to reel him in, then you made an error about where he was in training, at least at this stage. So it's a no harm, no foul, no correction, no reward "fix," and it means you need to re-assess and back up.


Make sense?

"However, the times he's distracted and doesn't sit I'm not sure what to do. So I always do something different and I'm sure it's not helping anything (sometimes I repeat SIT until he sits, others I will pop the leash lightly, others I will make him sit). "

You now know not to correct, because you have not fully trained a command that you have not proofed like heck.

You now understand what proofing is. So don't ask for a sit except indoors, no distractions, no venue-change.

Right? You will not be asking for a sit that you did not proof.

Go back to teaching that sit, and proofing. I would stop worrying about what I did before when he failed (in confusion or distraction).

In the VERY beginning, you are teaqching that the mark/reward is the ultimate greatest thing that can happen. Non-compliance is ignored, and good reps are marked. As the reward becomes more important, non-compliance will disappear. If non-compliance is because of a distraction, engagement is the issue, and there's tons of material here on the importance of and how to improve engagement. Random non-compliance indicates that the behavior is not fully trained or ready to be proofed.

You are approaching this from the perspective of how to correct the dog if he doesn't perform. The core principle of marker training is to increase the dog's motivation until he looks forward to doing it. There are things that you can do in your training technique to improve engagement and motivation.

Corrections for non-compliance are given to dogs who are properly trained. You are starting out, and there's no way your dog understands training or failure, much less what the consequences for failure are.

"The times he's distracted and doesn't sit I'm not sure what to do."


You are not going to have those times. You are going to proof for distractions before you command him with distractions.



I'm saying it every way I know.

We do know it's a concept that takes a leap to fully grasp .... I work with dog owners all the time, and this is a major sticking point ..... that the dog is not failing to comply until he KNOWS (including proofing for venue, distraction, distance, and everything he will encounter) the command. We don't correct for non-compliance of something the dog didn't KNOW, right? And knowing includes all that proofing.

"Corrections for non-compliance are given to dogs who are properly trained. You are starting out, and there's no way your dog understands training or failure, much less what the consequences for failure are."


EXACTLY!

Disclaimer: These are my opinions and the way I train MY dogs. Take it for what it is worth

Natalie >>

First of all let me answer the question that is in the title of the thread.

"How to know when a dog knows a command"

The scientific answer is "you never know...ever"

scientifically speaking , training an animal is the process of manipulating the environment and controlling the consequence of a behaviour to INCREASE THE PROBABILITY OF THAT BEHAVIOUR IN THE FUTURE.


So you can never ever be sure of a dog's behaviour even after 10 yrs of training, you can just increase the probability of the desired behaviour. Unless one is able to whoeheartedly accept this scientific truth, we will not be able to adopt proper training methods.


Example : Even the best basket ball player (Jordan) cannot guarantee that he will sink the ball during a free throw.. there is just a very high chance he will , but it is still a chance. Let us say that I punish him for not sinking a ball ( because he was distracted due to some thing ) ...do you think his performance will improve ? I don't think so.


There are huge fall outs of punishments for obedience behaviours.

I never ever punish my dogs for obedience behaviours ...ever . I punish my dogs only for pack structure issues , like showing un-sanctioned aggression to other dogs or people. Eating the food before I give permission to, Growling at each other within the pack etc.

During training obedience, I never punish . The price I have to pay for that quick fix is unacceptably high in the long run.


So I would say "Stop Correcting" and learn to stack up the cards in your favour before you start playing the game. Control the environment in such a way that the probability of him coming to you is very high even before you start that activity. Correcting him for an obedience behaviour is just too destructive and irreversable.

The question you have asked actually needs a very very long answer... but for now , just know that you are paying a humungous price for the 'qick fix' of correcting.


Also, you have mentioned that you call him and he does not come to you sometimes. I would first of all "stop calling him" . Take him to an empty room when he is hungry and have a fist full of cheese bits. Give him a bit of food and walk away. Do not say anything... Let him make the decision to come to you , but if he does, mark the instant he makes that decision (not when he comes to you) and feed him and move away , let him make that decision again.. train this for a few weeks till the behaviour gets stronger. Only after that you have to even open your mouth to command him to come.

Check this video out , you may find it helpful
LOOSE ENGAGEMENT UNDER HIGH DISTRACTION


If you can upload a youtube video of your training issue we can help you better

All the above! Proof, proof, proof constantly.
Distraction, distance and duration are never added at the same time.
If the dog is ignoring the command then figure out why.
What situation did it happen in?
Was he paying more attention to something else?
Is either you distance, time, or distraction to much for the level the dog is at?
I'm not a big believer when I hear someone say "my dog KNOWS what I told him but he's stubborn".
"Stubborn" tells me one thing. The dog is confused and that's not a correctable offense.
Proof when your training and not just hope the dog will listen. This goes for ANY command.