Quote: Natalie Rynda

.... people that know anything don't want that. but there are many people out there that told me my dog barks like this because he's protecting me, and that they were bred to do this, and they wish their dogs barked like that and so on.

Yes, many people do give very bad advice.

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Edited by steve strom (10/16/2013 05:51 PM)
Edit reason: too many quotes. its getting confusing

Too bad your dog doesn't "smile". The "smile" with a little territorial barking is very scary if you don't know the dog.

No petite smile for him, just the big goofy gaping grin

Kiersten, there are no experienced protection trainers in the area that I have been able to find. I was previously working with a trainer who's currently working on titling her first dog in PSA. I understand what you are saying about the change from prey to defense - I use LB as a sanity check as often as I dare. I was very strictly warned of the danger of inadvertently making myself an adversary by back tying my dog, it's only been done two times.

Mara, more focus is always good, I'll keep trying to positively train a nice long chain of barks.

Looking forward to this next training contest! I hope I can commit more time to our specific goals this time and really work on my timing.

 Quote: Kristin Muntz

I understand what you are saying about the change from prey to defense - I use LB as a sanity check as often as I dare. I was very strictly warned of the danger of inadvertently making myself an adversary by back tying my dog, it's only been done two times.

Kristin; we've all had our heads pecked on a few times, that's for sure! I'm pretty convinced that it's how I learn best.

I just wanted to clarify one thing about the back-tying that I hope wasn't misunderstood. There are things you can work on individually by back-tying, but you don't want to agitate the dog, unless you are working with experienced helpers and/or trainer who understand defense. You don't use the whip until you can control which drive the dog is working in.

JMO

I've found that just having Logan next to me, controlled and in a sit or down watching the person intimidates the shit out of them...no barking needed.

I definitely wouldn't want to make Duke suspicious if I were you. Teaching him to bark for a tug reward would be best. Reinforce the bark with the helping person giving the tug and reinforce the quiet/chillout with you rewarding him. Most people don't know the difference between play barking and serious defensive barking anyway.

What is the difference between a tug and a ball? The dog has to bite the ball just like he has to bite the tug in order to interact with it. How is a ball a better reward for teaching a dog to bark on command and then to eventually point that dog at someone while he's barking on command? How is biting a ball and not biting a jute or leather tug going to decrease liability? How is a barking dog a liability at all?

Using markers would be a better way to go about this, I agree. It doesn't matter if he's doing a happy bark. If a dog barks, he's barking. A 'bad guy' doesn't care what the bark means, all he sees is an 80 pound barking dog looking right at him.

I agree that for most purposes...teaching a dog to bark on command is enough of a 'display' to ward off the average person. They do not know the difference between a dog barking in prey vs a dog barking in defense.

Someone that is really intent on hurting you...well if you are put in that kind a situation or will be in the kind of hareas that would make that kind of scenario possible...you need a dog that will back up that barking or a gun.

I personally have my dogs trained to bark on command & that is usually enough. My female has been taught an alert command & will put on a very serious display...but will also follow it up when given a command to do so.

For the normal/ average person the dog barking on command is enough to ward off most ill-intended persons.....but...I would not depend on a handler back-tieing & playing with a dog with a tug to put on a serious threat display. (not to mention the possibility of pushing you own dog into defense...not what you want to do at all) It just is not the same as a trained decoy working your dog for teaching a real threat display on command. Especially if the ill-intended person is going to call your bluff & move toward you instead of away from you....be it his being on drugs or just crazy. You need a dog that will up the anti so to speak & a just bark on command dog will not do that.

If there's any way at all for someone to make a liability out of a barking dog they will. In my state if a dog is tied, barks and scares someone so that they fall they can sue. I know someone this happened to when I did AC. Its not right, but it does happen.

Just a quick followup as I don't like to leave questions hanging, but I definitely have a LOT of great information here, and all the input is very appreciated.

I'm not worried about liability in general (though maybe I should be) because if the person in question is close enough to be affected by me and my on-leash dog, he/she is too darned close for my comfort. At a distance, I can better judge the person(s) and their reaction and get us both out of there if things look weird (crazy/drug addled/keeps advancing).

I was thinking, Samantha, that maybe a ball would be a better choice because it directs the reward away from the barkee, rather than bringing the dog in towards them. But tugs are higher drive for him so that's likely what we'll start with. (I realize I am probably overcomplicating that in my own mind)