I didn't say that...

I just relate this to men going into a resturant and ordering the hottest food on the menu, only to later find they can't eat it. Must be a testosterone thing?!?!

I do have some leftover toenail polish and poodle bows if you want them though. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Now that was funny.

I think that people are a little off track here. Consistantly top scoring dogs in SchH and IPO are usually not dogs carrying the highest levels of the most desireable traits which are fighting instinct, prey drive and hardness. This is simply a truth that has been demonstrated over and over. Realize that schutzhund is a aport that grew out of a selection test in which breeders were supposed to look at the entire dog and apply those genetics appropriatly to theirs. Sport scores came second! It is very important that in discussing breeding and sport that they are viewed as seperate but overlapping concerns!
If I wanted to have a dog that could be trialed in the V range every weekend I would not pick a dog that displays the top end of the desireable traits in breeding. I would pick a very willing, trainable one that falls into the 7-8 bracket.
The sport is designed for the medium dog! Have a ton of fun and success with such an animal. But, consider hard before adding it to the gene pool on a frequent basis.
Remember, that schutzhund dogs should be able to go on to a variety of other tasks, among that population we should be seeing S&R dogs, police dogs, detector dogs, companion dogs, etc.
If you are focused entirely on schutzhund as a competetive sport you loose its entire reason for its development in the first place.

Originally posted by Sch3FH2:
Oops, sorry Kevin, that was Todd who said people who can handle a 9 aren't top sch people. My mistake! Thank You, I just about had apoplexy when I read the post above. I could just feel some very good handlers competing with great and powerful dogs plotting against me!

That is intresting Kevin. Edgar Kaltenbach is an example. He use to handle very hard dogs. He has now switched to a level 8 dog. "Not so much pressure and shit needed" he says. He trains a dog that is tough every now and again but his prefrence for the sport is a medium high drive dog. It is to hard to score points all the time with a hard dog. This type of animal is hard to maintain at that level.
I agree with Kevin that Schutzhund dogs for the most part should be able to function in some other area of life other than the sport. At least that should be the goal.

Originally posted by Kevin Sheldahl:
If you are focused entirely on schutzhund as a competetive sport you loose its entire reason for its development in the first place. I honestly think that it was lost quite a long time ago. When judges started rewarding only perfect immoveable grips, freight train hits, and joyful albeit imprecise obedience, they sent the competitors and breeders alike scurrying for a different type of dog. Hardness and aggression are on the decline as a result.

 Quote:

Must be a testosterone thing?!?!

wellll...I've seen some pretty...mmm..."tough" ladies on the competition field. I just assume it is a natural progression for a pre-pubescent girl who likes to own/ride the biggest, baddest stallion. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I wasn't talking about the toughness of the handler... I was talking about the need to brag about how hard ones dog is.... how big ones father is... etc. Machoisms... you know? I just don't see too many girls on the field saying how big and bad their dogs are, and I am in a 60%/40% f/m club.

Did you by chance know I was into horses first, or was that just chit luck?

Dogs poop less... they win. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Some judges still do like to see the real tough dogs. DVG is not as big on the grip aspect, if the dog bites three quarters then that is almost always good. Even now alot of the USA judges like a tough dog. Germany has really lost it in terms of scoring for points regarding the grip.

So how do you successfully compete and breed the suitable? Would a good resolution be to train the 7-8 and save the 9 for breeding??

Unfortunately money is a huge motivitating factor in the whole dog world. The slightest influence of it can be detrimental.

I was having this discussion with a friend of mine the other day. There has to be reason why only the best of the best wolves reproduce themselves in the wild. A lot of the times the answer is right in front of our faces. I also remember watching an episode on apes on day. They were explaining how the alpha ape is always the healthiest, the strongest, has the best technique, etc...