Quote:

Originally posted by Don B. Ackerson:
Mike wrote - compared to some of the methods I have seen used in say some of the PP sports that have been born in the States.

Mike is it the quailty of dogs or is the training that makes the SchH, IPO, or Ring sport dogs better candiates for real work then the U.S. born protection organizations?

In my mind they the Protection groups seem to be training for the real world. They encourage fight drive and train scenarios that are more likely to happen. The want maybe a bit more sharper dog than then sports. And that the dog cue off their commands, only.

I am not sure what is what. I have seen a few dogs from PP sports that were nice dogs, but overall most of the people that I have seen train within these sports bad-mouth schutzhund and IPO, and when you look at the root of why they do so (slander) it is normally because either thier dog could not cut it in Schutzhund or Ring, or they simply could not. The European sports take a tremendous amount of time to partcipate in, so tons of people wash out. Some never get into a dog sport again, others seek out something easier and then when they get by in that, they bad mouth how other sports are no good etc. etc. To answer your question if the European Sports produce better Police canidates; without a doubt in general.

It is my feeling that if you have the right dog, you can train it for sport, and still have a PP dog.

Now do not get me wrong, not all PP sports are bad, or the people that are into it are all poor trainers with poor dogs, but I do see a large concentration of the above-mentioned. I have met a few people from the PP sports and they all start thier dogs in defense, as this will make them "real". this type of training on most dogs is foolish. The only reason you would have to start a dog, by tweeking his side is because he lacks prey drive, and real aggression. People who say things like "oh my dog is too hard for schutzhund" and stuff of the like are normally the people I am refering too. So again, look at the dog, not just the title of whatever sport they have.

Mike Thanks for your insight, but won't you say the strict requirment of the SchH Ob and Tracking routines is the thing that wipe out most dogs/owners rather then the protection routines? I see a lot of scores like 76,74,95 in the mid-low end of the scores in SchH trails, very little 95,93,6xs.
I'm asking. I don't know, from the small of amount of data that I have.

I agree that a lot of PPD clubs do down play the SchH. But they speak highly of the Ring Sports (believing like I use to that these dogs must have tremendous fight/combat drive). The only bump they make reference to is the stress on using little dogs (Mals).

There are a number of reasons why what you speak about occurs. It is hard and really too general to answer with facts as there are so many variables in a Schutzhund trial. I see a mix of low and high scores within all the phases. Normally if you have a high tracking dog, and a high ob dog that is consistanly scoring high in those two phases, then there is normally a problem with the protection; either the dog is too hard, or too soft, or the handler does not have a good helper available to them. When you see alot of 70/70/95 this is noramlly a handler problem, as it takes alot of talent to get into the 90's in tracking and ob. The bite work is not so hard. This is why people wash out, as it is a three pahse sport. You must be able to train all three phases if you are going to do well. And most people cannot. It is that simple. Schutzhund is about drive and ob. On and off. Control. There are not that many trainers that can take a dog and get 93 in each phase or better.

Don you misunderstood what I said. I have had a personal conversation with steve on the phone and he has stated that with pups he would put them in the kennel until they are 8 weeks old and do nothing with them. My comment to him was that by socializing, and imprinting you can help avoid problems with sounds, surfaces and etc.

andre whomever you are sir please do not become personal with me on this board .talking of 8 week old puppies i do not raise puppies nor have i ever spoke to you unless you are one of the thousands of clients that i have trained a dog for through the years, if you continue this i will email mr. frawley and report this tomfoolery. stephen g fisher

Originally posted by Andre Fant:
Don you misunderstood what I said. I have had a personal conversation with steve on the phone and he has stated that with pups he would put them in the kennel until they are 8 weeks old and do nothing with them. My comment to him was that by socializing, and imprinting you can help avoid problems with sounds, surfaces and etc. Steve what's the problem? Andre's advice seems helpful and IS right?

That was a great post!

Rene's post was great.


We should start a thread on badazz dog stories, just for the kid in all of us. he he he

Andre wrote - Don you misunderstood what I said... I My comment to him was that by socializing, and imprinting you can help avoid problems with sounds, surfaces and etc

My reply thanks for explaining, you describe a excelent way to socailize and imprint a puppy to strange sounds and surfaces etc.. That was sorta an "A" & "B" conversation, but now I "C".

Renee Weeewhoo!! That was a great story don't you hate people that are close minded. Its good to see his eyes and butt were opened, sometimes it takes a butt chewing so the eyes can see.

Now put some icing on my cake, Tell me that tough ass female, was a GSD!

A lot of street Protection trainers, here say that the GSD can't do the work anymore, they read sh%$ and it becomes concrete in their brain, and replace words to mean "all of them", though they will admitt that there are some rare herders (is what they call GSD/Mals) that can make them eat dirt.

Go SchH girl!!! She did open his eyes, I wonder if he lost enrollment? Everybody going to SchH school to get, Some Real Training!!