LOL, the problem isn't the dogs its the students...the students spend 6 weeks in patrol where they learn the basics of ob, basic patrol, and how to decoy, then they have 6 weeks of detection where they learn how to work a detection dog. Not to mention the time in the classroom learning principles of conditioning, care of a mwd.....etc.....So to say that is more than ample time to teach them proper employment I would disagree. They forget half of what is taught by the time they get to their first base anyways, just because we get a lot thrown at us in 12 weeks. But if you can do it in 13 weeks, thats great, maybe ya'll have the secret <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> LOL

My 2 cents,

Kevin,
Major problem is that your definition of deployment and the military's definition(esp Army)
are quite different!

Your main concern is patrolling the mean streets of Albuqureque(sorry for the spelling).

Mine is patrolling the caves of Afganistan, the streets of Bagdad and maybe soon the mountains of North Korea.

The Army dog program is concentrating on our combat support mission! Plain and simple. Law Enforcement has been put on the back burner. I know this because all our new doctrine being hashed out is coming from and through us at the dog school.

Unfortunately (or fortunately), military installations are very sheltered from "real" crimes and the magnitude of these crimes. After 9/11, even Army Installations have gate guards. Law enforcement techniques are not stressed, unless individual kennelmasters and trainers teach, employ, stress and require it!

Besides, I've been told are #1 mission is to find IEDs! Dogs being patrolled trained is just a benefit! Hogwash. When I'm "on the road", 95%+/- of my time is in "patrol mode"!

Kevin, we've trained before, you know I live and breathe tactics and I stress it to anyone that'll listen.

It'll take the death or serious injury to a dog team or two doing a "real world" building search on a 6' leash, before things change.

Hi Don

Forgive me if I seemed to run you down it was not my intention, clearly from you description you are not on the same assembly line, when it comes to deliverables, our aim is to deliver a Patrol dog, yours … well how do you describe you end result would it be a patrol/detection dog – yes

Interesting, why do you find it necessary to train the youngsters as decoys it takes a lot of skill that comes from working several dogs.

David,

I can't speak for the dog school now, I retired in 88. We did train off-leash building searches at the dog school however when I was an instructor there. It was usually base or post policy that restricted the handler from conducting off-leash searches at a particular installation. Having been a Kennel Master and trainer in SEA, we were not too concerned with standoff's etc. We also had to contend with a sigificant difference in deployment, which is why the "old" sentry dog was still being trained, through the end of the Viet Nam war. A dog's role is combat is well documented, fortunately there is not much call for a tripwire, boobytrap, mine and tunnel dog in todays law enforcement. At least not here, not yet.

DFrost

Reiner,

Sorry didn't mean to sound like I was offended. I love my program and it has grown a lot in the past few years, however, in a big way we are still way behind. David is right our mission is not really patrol work....in fact I bet if some had their way we would have detector only dogs...

As far as teaching these new guys to decoy you are right, however we have to use what we have. With the way the Air Force program is going we are lucky if we have a guy on a dog for 3-5 years and that is probably pushing it. So the experience level is not there, we don't have a formal decoy school, wish we did. We just teach the very basics....put on a sleeve and catch the dog...there is no reading the dog, targeting the dog, understanding if you work defense/prey, etc...

That all comes from time in the field, working your dog and hoping you have someone there to teach you the right way...

Kevin, we've trained before, you know I live and breathe tactics and I stress it to anyone that'll listen.

It'll take the death or serious injury to a dog team or two doing a real world building search on a 6' leash, before things change.

David!
Nice to hear from you!!
I understand the idea of working most in the area where the priorities are, but, it does seem that staying out of the way of harm, regardless of service, military or civilian, would be a priority. There seems to be a lot of work the Army is doing that is a lot more like policing than the past. Watching news footage of diversionary devices, and SWAT like dynamic entry tactics in both Iraq and Afghanistan shows that there is a convergence in tactics if not mission. The longer we're in that part of the world the more policing the Armed forces will do...and it seems to fall on the Army to do the task with part of the fallout being the application of dog handler teams. You guys deserve all the tools for the job.
I've said the same to our Air Force handlers here as well. We have the good fortune of training with them quite a bit and it is a pleasure to work tactics with them, they are quite receptive. It is an area that the guys I train feel they can give something to the service men and women. Working within the constraints of base and AF regulations can be a bit of a challenge, but the flexibility of dog work usually allows a technique or two to fall within those guidelines and fill the needs of safety and effectiveness.
My visit with you last summer really got me thinking about this subject.

Dave F.,

I'm can't quote the POI(SOP)for Handler's Course, but I watched a "certification" a few weeks ago and every student dog team ran the bldg search on a 6'. Now a few weeks ago, during a certification where I certified my 2 dogs, I ran each bldg search on a 360' or 30' leash. But, both dogs ran 3 bldg searches each the previous day off leash successfully. Every other team ran their cert on a 6' and there were handlers that actually were allowed to present door seams!
I say that not to belittle the other trainers, but to show there are handlers that do not know any better. I stated that it will take a death or serious injury to wake people up because if you read previous posts to MWD and building searches, you'll see that base policies for some handlers is "all bldg searches will be conducted on leash".
In the Army, we have Program Managers that set policy (normally). These Program Mangers are normally very experienced handlers. Kennelmasters are then allowed to set up an standard operating procedure (SOP) with the Provost Marshal so ignorant rules (my opinion) like on-leash bldg searches are mandatory.
Please correct me if I'm wrong (Don), but in the Air Force, base commanders set and enforce policy. These are non-dog people(having fufu as a pet doesn't count). Yes, it is usually delegated down to the Chief of Police or their equivalent, but you get my meaning. Tough for a Sergeant to tell a Colonel what is going to be what when it comes down to policy! Apologise for steppin' on some toes.

Meant to say, "not" mandatory for 6' leash bldg searches. Sorry.

Kevin,
You are right about our combat missions turning more like SWAT. Reports from the field had Army dog teams on point for Green Beret and Navy Seal teams in Iraq and Afganistan.

We (Army) are starting up a course for kennelmasters and trainers that will help them with everything (hopefully) for future deployments.....nothing for Law Enforcement

We are going to start a Combat Tracker course jointly with the Marines.....nothing for road duty
Even though, I can't wait for that school!

There is serious talk about starting up the Mine Dog Program, for the millionth time!

All combat support, nothing new for "workin' the road".

David K,

That was my point. Us old guys talk about the way it used to be at the dog school. Did you know there is a training area at Medina that probably still has the tunnels. And the ponds, which are full of some nice bass and giant blue gills, are were we started the "water dogs". When we did building searches, certification required them off leash. The old course also had tracking. It was a lot to accomplish in 12 weeks, but we managed. We also trained the dog and the student. Classes had a mix of retrained patrol, sentry and green dogs. There were 12 classes of 24 students and dogs in training, and that was just patrol dog school. I know it's changed a lot over the years. I still go back there on occasion on my annual visit to New Mexico. I still have a few "old" friends there that are now working with TSA training the explosives detectors. That dog school was a big part of my life for many years. I have many fond memories.

DFrost

Hi Don

Well in some weird way that is how we all started out, trail and error. I was in the Military myself and can relate perfectly to what you are putting across, Yes the Brass, if only they took some time out from there hectic officers pub duty’s and actually listened or did some research on the value of K9’s the world would be a better place, but its mostly the boys with long University degrees that take up those positions and yes in this Hi-Tec era of precision guided bombs who needs a dog, if you can drop a 2000 pound bomb on a guys head.

Some one took the time to explain your set up to me in detail, so I am covered

Good luck, and as far as the safety issues are concerned – well scars make better tattoo’s any way– and gives a man more to talk about –HaHa