I posted a question a month or so ago about my working line shepherd titled "flat spots". My GSD is now ten months old and at the time of the post his drive was way low. He had shown great promise as a 3-4 month old. I was frustrated and almost got rid of him. I was given the advice from this board as well as others to let him grow.

I have and honestly every day since my post his drive is building. I am now very pleased with how he is devolping, and am glad I did not get rid of him.

I have owned and trained many PPD and other dogs but I always aquired mature dogs that were to much for there currnet home enviroment. I was able to get them free or cheap, and never had the "investment" influencing my thoughts.

This is the first working line puppy I have aquired to keep as my own and compete in sport with. Sport requries patients and a solid foundation in your dog. I am learning that going slow and right is what is needed. I quit comparing my puppy to the other dogs progress that were mature.

I will give you the same advice I was given....and remember no one can judge your dog at 6 months as to how it will be at 2yr. Be patient let him mature keep up his drive training.

Even if he turns out to be a dud....the work you put in to him with drive, focus, and grip will pay divends to you as a handler and trainer and transfer to your new dog.

Also if you choose to get rid of him after this time you can market him for exactly what he is and if he is socialized well and has been OB trained you should be able to place him in the right spot and recoup some or all of your investment, as there are many people out there that want that.

That is the way I placed the many dogs I have aquired and trained.

The only kicker is that Attachment part....can't help you there....I jus transfer the attachment to another dog...

Good luck

this is in response to the original post on this thread with regards to a lack of prey drive in showline gsd. i am not in a unique position nor am i an authority as a number of folks on this board have also had showlines, working dogs and a combination of the two. i have not noticed that showline dogs are particularly deficient in any of the drives; any more so than the working or sport dogs. what i have noticed is a deficiency in the things that go along with these drives that make the drives useful - maybe a lack of hardness, high degree of handler sensitivity, turned on nerves, inability to take correction, shutting down, etc. i have seen showline dogs very high in prey drive as long as it is a ball, tug, rag, etc, but lack the confidence to see the man wearing the sleeve as prey. or perhaps they are fine with that until there is any kind of pressure put on them, when the prey needs to turn to defense. the stick hits will make them come off the sleeve, off the field or cause the grips to become frantic and chewy. i have also seen showline dogs so high in defense that they literally destroy their own immune system by being "turned on" all the time. the results can be wide and varied but includes a long list of health related problems. in all fairness, i have to say that i have seen the same things occur in working dogs also, but it is just not as common. as a whole they are better able to take correction without being "done for the day." they are sensitive to the handler, but not usually to the degree of being neurotic. they are better able to see the 3 phases (tracking, obedience and protection) as work rather than play.
i think certain characteristics are just inherent to the breed, but selective breeding and differences in training methods can magnify the differences between the particular bloodlines.

You could get a mediocre drive dog from a workline breeding as easily as you can get mediocre from showline. I have all varieties and find they all have something to offer:

My 100% working line Mink grandson is very high drive (10), focused and has enough sensitivity to a handler to not be a hard head, but not so much that he shuts down. He is a certified disaster dog. His drives and ability to focus for long periods of time to me are his biggest assets.

My 1/2 German Showline, 1/2 German working line Lord grandson is OVER THE TOP (11.. aka off the scale) in his drives, intense focused hard head when in top drive but listens when given a correction of equal value. He is a little harder to train in some aspects but the end result is a top notch awesome dog to watch. He was orginially trained for the PD. His structure, agility, and insane drive are his biggest assets.

1/2 German, 1/4 Belgium/1/4 Chech bitch all working line is new in my kennel and came from a pet home where she was too much dog. Her drives are coming out pretty quickly but I think they will be maybe a little less than my Mink grandson. or maybe not... we will see. Haven't had her long enough to pass judgement but her solid nerves, temperment and excellent structure/agilty are the assets she brings to the table to start with.

10 month old German Showline bitch out of V and VA rated SCH3 parents. She came over knowing nothing.. not even her name. She obviously was not handled. Plenty of drive, average focus for her age, kind of a soft mouth (at first). Now that she has been here.. well, her drive just keeps growing with age, she seems to think that she is ready for hidden sleeves..or no sleeves, and the grip with minimal work is improving and could easily be solid if I was working with her. She is a bit of a hard head and takes correction well...stick hit while on a sleeve (excuse me..I mean bare arm..with no agression mind you..just puppy playing way rough) did not make her even blink. I got this dog to do USAR but given her "desires" I may just have to re-enter the Schutzhund world and give her a go. Nerves of steel on this dog. Not handler sensitive at all contrary to the "showline" stigma. Her best attributes thus far are solid nerves, balanced drives and structurally sound and pretty at the same time.

All 4 of these dogs have strong nerves amd drives. There is a little variation in levels and type of intesity about them but they all are capable of working.

So the point is I think you should just give it a go and use this dog as your "learning dog". Every dog, unless they are just 100% couch potato can teach you a lot. Just make sure you are getting a lot of guidence to make the best of the dog you have.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

to work lots of show dogs. Some actually bite and can even handle some pressure from me without letting go. However, most will show that pressure in the grip, or after the out, usually by trying to bite me in the legs after they run around to the back. The nerves simply are not what they should be and courage is almost non exisistent. Even the ones that don't let go during the biting phase, will almost always shut down after the out Anne

I have to say that this is incorrect - this may be the kind of show dog that your used to but you cant possible speak for all - if a dog has a good drive you can teach it to work well- I have two show line shepherds one a pup at 12 weeks and the other at 16 months - the older one was bought as a family pet and companion, this dog is a coat and so cant be shown - not that i would anyway - a few months ago we started training him in schutzhund - and what do you know he has amazing prey drive and progressed onto the sleeve from the rag v quickly and is doing really well. You mention that some actually 'bite' the sleeve as if its some sort of miracle, well this dog bites the sleeve and wont let go no matter how much stress is placed on him, and as for courage, he doesnt back down.
And this is a dog from nothing more than a family pedigree - the helpers who are more than capable are impressed with his ability and say he will progress far - im aware he wont ever be in high level competion but then nor will alot of working line dogs.

Im not jumping into the whole working/show divide as i really dont care for it - i have two dog with good potential to work and they happen to be from show lines - i dont disagree that that if i wanted to compete at a high level i would invest in a working line dog. But to say that show line dogs on the whole cant work is completley inacurate.

Chris

I too have a pup from a show line which i am training in schutzund, at the moment hes just on the rag but has a good drive and good potential - Why not try working with your pup instead of giving up straight away, you may well be surprised and if this is your 1st time then at this time its all a learning curve, if you do well with your pup you will also be teaching yourself and preparing yourself for stronger dogs in the future.

The higher drives for working lines is a generalization - there are some Show lines dogs that have good drives and grip ( German working folks call those dogs "mutations" <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ) and there are oviously some duds out of strict Working lines.
But having attended multiple conformation shows, most ( not all - but *most* ) Show lines dogs don't have on average have the drives and grips that dogs being shown from Working lines.
A lot of the dogs at some of the conformation shows that I saw did not deserve a "pronouced" in courage, to be sure, for what little work was required from them.

Show line breeders could be breeding good looking dogs with a good level of drives and grips - those dogs are out there. The fact that they often don't mystifies me.

Both sides bad mouth each other, it's a fact of life. *Two* judges at the same SchH trial ( both Show line types ) told the audience that my current GSD shows that the Czech breeders cross bred to Mals long ago. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />
Ultimately I wasn't too mad - my dog will be at the Nationals, nothing that they breed would even make it to the Regionals. :rolleyes:

Just my opinion, but it's based on seeing a lot of dogs worked.

I LOVE Anne's comments:

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You should also look at the other side of the equation. You will have to ask yourself if you told the breeder exactly what you were intending to do with the puppy. Perhaps they really believed they were giving you what you wanted. Maybe this pup will really turn out to be a nice dog, again, we have no way to know that just yet. Only you know what conversations you had with the breeder. I certainly don't think you should be calling them and accusing them of fraud. I'm not saying you intend to do that but some people are not really clear about what they want to do with their puppy and are angry when they don't get what they want.

You do have some responsibility in the transaction as it sounds like you were an uninformed buyer.

I think those statements can't be read enough by people who have never purchased/owned/trained a 'real' GSD from working lines.

Frankly, (and let the flaming begin! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ) from the level and experience it appears from Chris Benskey postings, he may not be ready to train/raise a REALLY high drive working puppy. And I don't mean this to be a critism, more a reality. I have a working puppy now, and THANK GOD she wasn't the first dog I raised and trained because I would have been absolutely overwhelmed.

I'm wondering if the breeder didn't actually match up the puppies drive to the experience and level he felt Chris could handle. Chris Benskey
PICKED him (and his dogs) as the chosen lines for his new puppy. My understanding from the responsible breeders I know is that they (by the end of the 8 weeks or so) really know the temperments of the puppies in the litter and try to match them up with the people showing interest. Some of the litter usually are 'pet' quality, and the the rest usually have different levels of the drive needed for whatever work the new owners need. I know my breeder kept back my pup because she was so high drive, and the only people left that had showed interest only wanted a 'pet'. She chose to keep the puppy and continue to find the perfect home (mine LOL) rather than make a poor match and have the pet home be going nuts with the high energy pup they would have had.

If the breeder has no problem taking YOUR pup back and finding a good home, then you should probably bring it back if you think you'll always be disappointed in it. But just realize, sometimes, when you get what you ask for (a really HIGH DRIVE PUP) it may not be what you are really ready for.

Additionally, I think most of our pups are fairly awkward at 12 weeks and for the next few months. So unless there is a medical condition your vet sees, that isn't probably a concern. They are growing so fast, and at different rates (my pup had no legs and was rather Bassett Hound looking for about a month there) that they can have trouble manoevering.