I remember a guy telling me that the answer to many of lifes riddles in simply not to ask the question. Same with dogs, best way to ensure that they dont fight is dont let 'em be together. Best few thousand dollars I spent was on the steel pipe, chain link and concrete that I built my dog runs out of. Fact is dogs sleep most of the time and they are just as happy to do that in a dog run as on the back door step. I know where my dogs are and what they are doing, not killing the neighbours sheep or each other. You can go away for a few days, someone can feed your dogs by simply throwing there food over the fence and hosing the run down from outside., It gives you peace of mind, the only people who will critscise keeping dogs in runs when they cant be supervised are those to whom the dogs are surrogate children. Each of our dogs gets a hour or more out each day, they usually have a mad dash around for a few minutes and then plonk themselves down to chew something theyve found. I cant recommend a kennel set up` enough to someone with mulitple dogs.

Yes Brenden, I think a lot of us would agree with you (believe it or not!) that kennels are the best option for multiple dogs IF you cannot control the dominance and agression between them. But we are only talking about 2 dogs here, and a male/female at that. This is a very workable cohabitation. Although I do think it is possible to tame down these behaviors to promote a more comfortable living arrangement, I am not convinced that that these instinctual behaviors can be completely eliminated between the dogs. It is the human's role to be the mediator and only allow the dogs to "work it out" under more subtle, non-injury inducing terms. I'm afraid that if the dogs are forced into non-heirarchal roles it will only create frustration and pent up agression which could manifest itself at any time like a walking time bomb.

Brendan,

I agree with you 100 percent on this. Kennels are the best way to keep dogs, no question in my mind about it. I have 3 malinois and that equals 3 runs with attached houses, period. Too much goes on "behind the scene" otherwise.
By keeping your dogs in kennels, you are stoping ALL KINDS of nasty little problems from ever developing.

Dave,

As to my above "advice" in my previous post; I would have deleted it had somebody not already made reference to it. I do not believe that there is a "quick fix" to this problem, other than seperation. It will probably take lots of time in obedience training and behavior modification before they are OK together, if it's ever going to happen.

A lot of issues raised here. Let's see if I can be cohesive in my input.

First, I never advocated letting them "work it out" for themselves. That implies letting them fight it out, which, not only is that patently ridiculous, but I disagree with that idea very strongly. Please don't attribute that kind of thinking to me!

I think Beth said it best, really, that dominance heirarchy is so innate in dogs that you can't really suppress it. Rank among dogs can be expressed in so many other ways besides fighting. I'm sure for many of you, your dogs are expressing rank right under your nose every day, but do you recognize it? For me, the moment fighting breaks out, that is where I draw the line. Another place I draw the line is harassment. I do not allow my dogs to harass each other.

As far as kenneling goes, I have nothing against that. I even own a kennel for each of my dogs, but I disagree that it is the only way to go. Certainly in some situations, that is the case, I will allow that. But it's not neccessary for every single multiple dog home, nor every single dog. I do not view my dogs as surrogate children; I have real human kids for that. To me, teaching my dogs to be secure enough in their environment and well behaved enough to be alone unkenneled is very important. Of course, I don't protection train. My Lab was training for tracking, but that is another story. If I had protection trained dogs, I would probably want to keep them more secure when I'm not there to supervise, to prevent any incidents involving unsuspecting meter readers, mail carriers, paper boys/girls, and other visitors.

Beth and Chuck sum up my thoughts on the issue pretty nicely. Of course, I won't say that my way is the ONLY way to go! Different strokes, folks! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Dave,

What do you do in the meantime.
I would work with these dogs seperately.

I would only allow them to be together when I felt I was well equipped to deal with any necessary behavior modification.

Good luck, jason

The difficulty with this topic is that everyone is right as there are many issues to the topic,how much are the dogs left alone,is there enough space for the dogs to get away from each other and how much you are the Alpha male.You will get a hierachy even without fights,just a snarl is usually enough from the dominant dog to get results.
I keep six Rotts together when I am with them and have no problems with them,when I am out they are kenneled seperately.
There is no easy answer and everyone must use the method that suits them best.

Brendan, I completely agree with you about kenneling. That's how they spend the day, and they're crated separately at night.

For that matter, they get along fine when I'm not present--it's like there's a competition for my attention, and Luna doesn't back off when Oka "tells" her too. She wants to be in there first.

But the consensus seems to be: spend more time with them and enforce good behavior--esp. one on one with the bitch, since she's less well trained. Thanks for the advice.

Dave,

Sorry this took a while. The thing is you need to control her pushng in. Don't leave it up to the male. They both need individual attention, but you control who and when. One of the problems with multiple dog households is that the dogs will attempt to assist in disciplining each other. That is one of the things you need to stop. The reason is that when you aren't there they will attempt to do it if they are loose together. My dogs are left alone in the house together when we aren't home, so I need them to not try and discipline each other or get into dominance problems.

Guys,

Richard Cannon seems to have the right idea here.

I have 6 Shepherds and see the same thing happening.

The biggest single influence should by YOU - the alpha dog.

You cannot influence the pack order, that is certainly going to be worked out by the dogs themselves. What you can do - and what is done in the wild - is for the pack leader to supervise and keep control in an absolutely fair manner.

Fairness is a prerequiesite for dogs. They seem to be able to take any form of discipline providing it is fair.

OK how do we determine fair?

The dog psychology is all important here and it is not quite the same as human psychology.

You have to be able to relate to your dogs on their level - not the human level.

With my pack I have an alpha male (who is in charge). Then I have a matriarchal bitch who runs the household.

Much like a human family where the wife runs the home and the husband only becomes involved in big decisions like buying a new car or a new fridge.

I let them sort out their own hierarchy which they have done well. I only step in when things go wrong - or more to the point when things are ABOUT to go wrong.

Somebody made the point that if you discipline one dog then other dogs who are senior to the dog being disciplined will attempt to assist you.

I do not allow this at all. I am the monarch and I do the disciplining and I do not need assitance from my minions to do so. And I make sure that they know it.

The result is that everybody knows their place in the structure and all dogs look to me to ensure fairness.

That is not to say that I interfere with dog 4 and 5 having a go to swap positions but I do make sure that dogs 3 and 6 do not get involved or interfere in the process.

Dogs 1 and 2 - the alpha male and the matriarch seldom involve themselves with these squabbles as they are very confident in their own positions but the lesser members of the pack do "take sides".

I feel that it is very important that as the "managing director" I am above the petty "office politics" but never so far out of touch that I do not see one of the pack being bullied.

Hope this is of use.

Regards,

Geoff.

Goeff, your analogy is so true...good post! I especially like the "matriarchal bitch". I have one of those too, but she is soooo bossy. Just like a woman, huh? She always tries to have her nose in every one elses business. Anytime one of my dogs tries to assist in disciplining, they are also discplined and given a time out.