I hear you Richard. What they are trying to do IS pretty obvious. But I'm still trying to understand at what point was it did someone decide that pure working lines weren't beautiful to look at?

 Quote:

Originally posted by Pedro:


Most people can't handle a true working Dobermann.

I haven't been around much lately due to a 3000 mile road trip to breed my Dobermann. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> No wise cracks, VC.

I have to agree with Pedro's statement 100%. As a small breeder of working line Dobermanns since the late 80's (approx. 10 litters)I will say that I buy or TAKE pups back from every litter, pups that have had the buyers screened, pups that go to experienced working homes. The dogs I take back are usually males,and the reason for taking them back is usually because of a dominance issue. A dominant working line Dobermann male is just not something for everyone, obviously. Maybe it's because they live more as house dogs than GSD's so it poses more of a problem on a daily basis? Don't know, but I also raise GSD's and rarely have a problem with people "not being able to handle" them.

So now the first question I ask a potential buyer is "have you ever owned a Dobermann before?"

Adding the show lines to working is not a solution to this dilemna though. I haven't had a litter in 4 years (for a lot of reasons) but I did breed one of my working line bitches to a German show line male once, just to see. I got prettier dogs, with decent drive and a little less dominant and softer temperament. I didn't get one of those back. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> I wasn't pleased with the dilution of the good stuff though and would never do that again.

 Quote:

Originally posted by uncropped dobe owner - wismz:
Richard,

You seem on top of most topics, but I don't think you frequent dobe circles. Both my dobes parents are show champions and can work. Alot of good dogs can work and our shown.

Being "able to work" and being breed worthy are 2 entirely different things that a large percentage of the population don't seem to understand.

I was criticized up one side and down the other for breeding to an untitled dog in the early 90's. He was a working police dog that complemented my females pedigree.........but <oh no> he didn't have any show or schutzhund titles. Sorry, but if my choice had been limited to a dog that could "work" according to a schutzhund judge or a member or the UDC or DPCA I would have said FORGET IT. I set my own criteria for breed worthiness that has nothing to do with show rings or scorebooks. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I am a huge fan of ScH for the record. I titled my female to SchH 3, IPO 3 and love the sport. I just don't think it's the only yardstick for measuring working ability.

Robert,

I think you describe the exception not the rule at this point.

The problem with what has happened with the conformation dogs only comes from the wholesale disertion of the conformation ring and the breed clubs by the working people. There has been no effort to provide input, nor participate in conformation showing. If the dogs are over sized it is an easy thing to take care of, ask that they be measured. If they are over sized they are excused, measured as over sized 3 times and they are permantly bared from the ring. Judges select from what is there, and there are very few organizations that have the ability to with hold the points for the show from all the dogs present. The Breed club is responsible for the education of judges, If you don't belong to the breed club don't gripe about what is put up or what the standard is. I am as guilty of this as anybody, I don't participate in the breed clubs for the breeds I have/had.

People tend to breed for extremes. That isn't just the conformation people. How many discussions of what is required for a working dog's temperament? SchH has been working towards dogs with high prey drive and little in the way of true aggression. There isn't much that can be put on one group or the other. This entire discussion is part of the reason I have switched breeds so often. I am now working with my 5th breed. The reason I change is that the dogs I find are either conformation dogs with out the temperament to work, or working line dogs that are ugly with all 4 feet pointing different directions. Now I haven't looked at every Kennel, or every dog, but at enough to form an opinion of the chances of getting what I want in a dog.

I don't get a lot of dogs so I want a high probability of getting the dog I want from most of the litters around, and I still have to look carefully to make sure I get what I want. When I went to get my current pup I flew to N.Y. to pick her up so that I got what I felt was a good chance at what I wanted in a dog. I end up in so many arguments over whether or not it is important that the dog be able to do it's job, or whether it is important that the dog meet the standard.

Richard is correct. How is John Q. Public going to know there is anything else out there if all he sees at a show is one "type". Many prospective dog owners, and especially first timers (including myself) go to dog shows to see what's available and ask questions. That means mainly AKC and CKC sponsored events. The UKC unfortunately is not as well represented in Canada. This includes the "sports" of flyball and agility which can draw large crowds because of the fast paced action and are a perfect way to promote yourself and your dog. If you want your breed to change, more working dog owners need to be proactive outside of their own little group. That way prospective dog owners have more of a choice. They don't have to buy into the party line.

For the Dobermann buffs out there is this because the TRUE working lines in many ways they were never designed to be used for what many people would like to use them for? Are they more of a sentry dog than police or sport dog, such as the oppisite of the GSD?

Often times in the serious domaninace issues is it with the handler, or other family members and pets more?

Well according to VanCamp they are to protect drugs, but he lives in his own little world. :rolleyes:

I think its probaly dominace with civil aggression being common. This dog was breed to bite people, not watch sheep (or be breed with american show dogs).

Robert

I think possibly one might want to look at what the 'work' of the breed is supposed to be. The breed is intended to be a personal companion protection dog. A dog that can be a part of a family group and have the ability to discern threats from non-threats and act accordingly. If you are calling 'true working dogs' the sport dogs or police dogs, then you are placing on the breed a characteristic it was not bred for, although it has been a versitile enough breed to be used for these endeavors. JQP doesn't get a Doberman to have a black and tan Lab - they get a Doberman because they want a dog that has the intellegence and capabilities of doing what the intent for the breed is - companion protector.

The description given of 'show dogs' in the breed was erroneous at best. As a whole the breed structurally is in good shape - there is not a huge majority of 'oversized' dogs, although since size is not a disqualification, it is not given more imporatance than other aspects of the breed. Actually, from what I recall, the FCI standards were raised with one of their many updates to change the standard to fit what was being bred, so that the FCI dogs are actually supposed to be larger than the 'American show lines'. The structural faults found in 'true working lines' which I assume means some of the sporting lines as well as some that have been utilized in some police work, such as Weyermuhle and others, are faults rarely found in the breed ring and are faults that are diliterious to any sport/working breed - weak rears, straight and unbalanced angles for and aft, etc.. Stating that, there are some dogs in 'working lines' that have acceptable structure, just as there are some dogs in 'show' lines that have acceptable temperaments. Regardless of various factions in this breed, as in others, to fractionate the breed into two seperate 'camps' there are those breeders that have and do care about the complete animal in all respects. The responsible breeder will take into consideration health, temperament,structure and breed type when doing any breeding - to do less is to shortchange the breed and its future. If one doesn't care about all parts then one comes up with a 'great working dog' that drops dead on the field (as has happened) or becomes inactive at a young age due to structural stresses, or does resemble a Lab more than anything remotely resembling a Doberman; of if on the other hand one comes up with a 'great show dog' then all else can be deminished, etc. You CAN do it all, if you actually get off your duff and do it FOR the breed and not for your ego - you limit a breed by ignoring what you think can't be done.

No, where is the ztp that states that dogs with faults can't be bred? I would love to go read it. I would also love to see pictures of your dog's show champion Weyermuhle parents. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />