well guys, i went to an akc show this weekend for the first time. it was in belleville il, and after that id have to say that ive never seen that many people&dogs in the same place and it was very political. i am much more excited about working dogs than show dogs.

I've been to several dog shows and even watched westminster on tv. I have to say that dog shows are the most pretentious, silly, human act of self indulgence ever. Most dog show people have way too much time and money on their hands. I love the intereviews with the handlers, they always say "he/she just wanted it, he came through and showed his so well blah, blah, blah." This always leaves me in tears. The Dogs don't care. They don't care if they come in first or dead last, shows are for humans not Dogs.

I attended a German style Rottweiler Verien (sp) show it was different from the AKC shows. Not only did they check conformation but the dogs are tested for drive, protection, and bitework. If the AKC added this to their shows and put a dogs intended working ability on display I would fully support them.

Princelydeeds, I agree with your comments and that is why im going to sch. title my rottie and show him in the akc.I want them to take notice that my male is titled and is in great phyiscal shape and let them see what a true german import rottie is supposed to look like! I agree that show rotties are no comparsion to a sch111 dog in phyiscal developement. We all have to show the akc ring what a true working line dog is supposed to look like! But we have to get in there and stand together to change there ideas. If you have a rottie you should think about joining the ARV. they are a great org. You are welcome to join and keep the rottie for what he is bred to do. Just my two cents. Rottie-man

AKC does not recognize SchH titles so even if your male is Sch3, if you enter him in a show they will only recognize in the catalog what AKC achievements he has. There are at least 2 dogs in the local CA shows that I know of that do have Schutzhund3/IPO3 and when you look them up in the AKC catalog, their untitled. Unfortunate for the owners who put so much work into those titles <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Are you planning to owner-handle your dog in the ring? Or hire a professional handler?

You know what I think is such a joke is when at the Westminster dog show they announce the working class. Well, all that comes out is these picture perfect specimens but you can look right at the dogs and see they are so toned down there are no drives in these dogs left. I don't even know why AKC has a working class. They don't support the jobs that the working class were all bred for. Good luck in anyones attempts to break into this highly pretentious and political field of conformation. You won't catch me there kissing some judges rear end though. I would rather be training my dog for what he was bred for, WORK.

Joe,

The working dogs were also designed to have specific looks. That includes the size they were developed to do the work, specific head size and shape, a specific bite to allow them to grip properly, proper leg position and straightness so they can work all day long without tiring.

I am on the soap box again. The idea that work and conformation are seperate is what has created the problems in so many working breeds. It yeilds dogs that don't look like they are suposed to or can't work. If you truely love your breed, the only way it will be maintained as it is intended is if dogs can meet the standards for both conformation and be able to work. The idea that a working dog can't good conformation is silly. The idea that proper conformation some how prevents working ability is sillier still. The conformation standards were based on the ability to do proper work. Do you want a Rott that looks like a Dobie? No? so conformation is important, isn't it? Part of makes the breeds different is there appearance, and that is what conformation is.

If you are unhappy that the dogs being currently shown in conformation are not workable, then get dogs that can and do work into the conformation ring. Believe it or not, there are people that are showing in conformation that believe the same thing. Dogs must have the proper working temperament. They need support, and we often need the help for proper conformation in the working dogs. If both sides would see the value in the other, the situation will improve. If the working people would begin to breed only dogs with the proper conformation and the ability to work, the conformation will begin to come back. Without both, the breed will continue to decrease in both areas.

I’ve read this thread with interest, hoping someone could give me a clearer explanation of what happened with the AKC over the years I was training skin babies instead of fur ones. But perhaps I am kidding myself that there is any one answer.

What follows is a bit of a disertation; I’m hard to offend, so if you don’t want to read further, ok by me. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> (Also I note that this thread has strayed somewhat from “rottweiler” to a more general issue, so if this reply needs to be moved, please make it so&hellip

When I showed my bicolor gsd in AKC conformation in the early 1960’s, she was wasn’t the only bicolor in the ring. Now all I ever seem to see are black & red/tan’s. I trialed her for CDX and the atmosphere in the ring then was energized, busy, and hectic. Now recently I went to observe an AKC OB trial and everyone talked in hushed tones, doors are rigged so they wouldn’t slam, and spectators are asked to withhold applause in the next ring while a dog was “working”. The dogs in the ring (and not just gsd’s) were, with very few exceptions, so laid back that it was hard to tell if they were awake. Interestingly, the only dog I saw with any noticeable drive was a Siberian Husky (!) trialed by a Junior Handler.
(And she rightfully took high score in Novice A)

So what happened in these 40 years? AKC was then, as now, just a data base management org. Then as now, unindentified dogs were being registered. Then as now, the showing/trialing of dogs was full of politics. So was it perhaps just the trend to safety ie, calm dogs don’t cause law suits? Or a society that over all became so work oriented, there was little time left to spend with kids much less energetic dogs?

If it were just the gsd that has been effected, then one might look to the difference in standard, ie Am vs Int’l, but it seems to me a lot of working breeds went flat in America. The easy answer is to point the finger at AKC (of whom, by the way, I am NOT a fan), but then why in Germany exists the same chism between show and working gsd?

Perhaps the answer lies in show breeding: a calm dog is easier to show, easier to place in a pet home, less of a liability, no matter what the breed. Since in America in particular, dogs are restricted from most public places (stores, restaurants, malls, some parks, etc), whole generations have grown up thinking that a dogs place is in the back yard. A calm dog is easier to keep…and reality is, the biggest market by far for dogs, is the pet home. The market dictates the product.

Perhaps to change the trend is to make owning a dog a real luxury. Like polo ponies. Folks who really, really want a dog, and can afford the time and effort to own one, will become the main market.
But IMNSHO, that won’t happen in my lifetime, or yours… <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

rottweiler_fancier, In response to your post i know that the AKC doesnt reconize Sch. titles the point that i was trying to make in my last post that the show rotties are just that,show. My 11 month old male came from show lines and he is show quality, very nice stop, great topline, eyes dark, mouth pigment black, and very nice angulation. I have entered 2 shows took a first and second, and handled him myself. When he gets pointed i will start Sch. training him. I for one will never suck up to a judge BUT i will before hand check out the judge to see if he is a working breed judge because if he is a toy group judge he wouldnt know a good working line dog from a dog that isnt. I know that there is a lot of politics in there but if you have a good dog sooner or later they will take notice! The only way that we are going to change there way of judging is to get good dogs in the ring and dont suck up to no judge! Thanks every one for letting me do my rambling! It was a long response to your question.

Dogma there is a lot more bi-colors out there than you think. Look at caralands unlimited, who was GV a couple years back! There are tons out there, aswell as sables. And also I do show in the AKC ring primarily in GSD's and I do NOT kiss anyones butt. And A dog who is a complete deadhead will NOT be a good dog in the show ring. I know if my dogs were deadheads then they would not be shown, they wouldn't have obedience done on them, I wouldn't be planning on doing agility or herding with them etc, etc. It would be pointless. I do think that a dog should be able to work as well have the correct conformation. This goes for ALL breeds. I do not to schH with my dogs because I am interested in other activites. That doesn't mean that I am against it by any means! I am on this board to learn more about it <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Showing a dog in conformation who has SchH or other working titles will get you dog noticed. Just because it isn't marked that way in a catalog does not mean people wont know. There is a german import GSD who is a Select Champion and has a SchH 2. He is a very nice dog, and he has a definite advantage as a stud dog compared to a dog without. I like an allaround dog. I agree 100% with Richards post <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Sable_Lvr
I'd like to applaud you for wanting to keep the working breeds working! Though I suppose if most breeders felt like you, we probably wouldn’t be having this interesting discussion. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I’ll certainly not dispute your comment about bicolors in the show ring, since my exposure to conformation showing since I got back into dogs has been very limited; mainly to big televised shows and a couple of local ones. There, unfortunately, I have not seen anything but B&T’s. (I do like the bicoloring best of all, though I currently have an all Black and a Sable)

I think I found a photo of Caraland Unlimited online…but which of the two is he on this page? I assume the one on the right? I would consider the one on the left a B&T.… http://www.angelfire.com/wi/gsdpedigrees/caralandleunlimited.html

I would love to see a Sable score big in AKC conformation showing, but wonder in today’s environment if even a dog like Timo (v Berrekasten) could make it in AKC. …Oh, well, doesn’t really matter. I’m not a breeder and at this stage in my life just train for the fun of it. I was going to do AKC OB, but the Black dog’s personality is definitely more suited to Schutzhund. So I'll see how the Sable pup turns out; she is much more balanced than the Black but with Czech/ DDR breeding, she’ll probably end up in Sch also.

But once we get there, I plan on taking her into the AKC ring! I agree with Richard’s and mspindler’s posts: if all the judges see are sloped backed B&T’s then that is all they can judge. Even if my good looking (in my eyes)level backed little sable bitch doesn’t place, spectators at least will see that there are other types/colors available. (Oh lord…don’t let me hear one more time: ” Is that there a wolf dog? I ain’t never seen that color shepherd before…” And don’t even get me started on what folks around here think of the all Black gsd…! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> )