Ross and Dot,

It is great to see you here. Ross and Dot imported the first BRT's in to Australia.

I think Ross makes a good point on this also, it is very important to learn to read your dogs so that you know when to intervene. Many people don't get that at all.

With this Rott I don't think it was prey or defense. I don't know if this is behavior that fits in to drive theory. The behavior is seen is only in instances where there are a group of dogs that are forming a pack. In this situation if there is an injured member of the group the members will turn on that member. It only happens in instances of noisy members. It almost becomes like a shark feeding frenzy, little directed behavior just unfocused biting. Usually directed at the noisy member of the group. A good place to see this is to sit around and watch at a dog park. If a dog is injured and starts to make noise it will attract a group in a hurry and often cause a big fight.

I have heard of this occuring in other situations with small children. In one incident there was a group of dogs in a family with a toddler wandering around with a dirty diaper. A bitch grabbed the child by the diaper and scared it. The kid started to scream and cry and other dogs in the group attacked. I don't remember how bad the child was injured.

Susan,

Trying to compare dogs and horses isn't really a good comparison. With horses the behaviorial differences are much more pronounced between Stalions and Geldings than what I have seen with neutered and unaltered dogs. I think that if this does happen more with unaltered dogs it is more of a function of lack of effort on the part of the owners. Lack of training and socialization seems to be a more common theme to bite situations.

It is pointless to try to put a "drive" on the attack to explain it. It really makes no difference because nobody saw it. Any aggressive response that isn't under control is wrong. It is a issue of training and control. The softy, nicey-nicey, halti, Petsmart training that is so popular now isn't gonna cut it with these types of dogs. Their strenght and hardness in these situations demands 100% control. (That doesn't mean 100% Captain Correction either.)

And I also don't care about these people that owned the dog, they should be put in jail for a long time. It is not an accident that your dog runs over and kills someone. It is negligence, and in my book that means manslaughter. A few years in the state penn should make em' think about it.

Anybody want to comment on the question about the fixed male being more dangerous?

There is a difference in a male that has been nutted before the onset of maturity and an intact male. Does that difference have anything to do with bad bites, who knows. In some instances maybe, in most others I doubt it. There are many reasons that lead up to a bite.

VanCamp, I know I'm veering off topic here, but Halti's should be banned. That is not leash training IMHO. I would rather use a prong coller (and I have on occasion) on my dog for pullling or misbehaving than a Halti.

Too many people use a Halti in a misguided attempt to control a strong dog. Many dogs that I see on my walks are still pulling at the Halti and don't seem too bothered by it. The few times I have mentioned a prong coller (or even a Martingale type slip chain) their eyes go big and they gasp in terror. "I couldn't use that!" they say. But their dogs could very easily bolt or charge on a Halti. The owners still have little control.

Originally posted by Richard Cannon:
A good place to see this is to sit around and watch at a dog park. If a dog is injured and starts to make noise it will attract a group in a hurry and often cause a big fight. This is true. I have observed similar circumstances, where two dogs get into a little scuffle, and you see all the other dogs' heads whip in that direction, then they all take off and join in the fray. I saw this happen more times than I can remember when I *used to* take my dogs to the dog park. I think it was a similar thing in this case with the Rottie. He heard a noise that triggered his response. That the owner could not pull him off the child is ridiculous.

And about the head collar, I think they can be a useful tool when used properly and for the right reasons, for the right dog. I happen to own one for each of my dogs, and have used them on occasion with success. I wouldn't ban them, but I do agree that they are over and mis used!

You know maybe the AKC should really get the blame for the attack. Obviously something was wrong with the dog. Its time the AKC stop playing lip service about terperment and do something. Its time they require a ZTP test, and just not allow any backyard breeder to get toghter and make puppies.

Robert

Several list members have made reference to a dog showing interest in attacking another dog that is yelping or is down and injured. What type of drive activates this type of response? I was under the opinion that how a dog responds to a situation is dictated by the differrent "drives". I've noticed on my rotts, 2 sheepherding titled, that they become very difficult to handle if I'm trimming my sheep's hooves. It requires me to throw the sheep to the ground, there is some struggling and calling out!! My dogs go ballistic. I have to tie them up, they want to "join inn" and help me "kill" the sheep. Is this possibly what happened in this situation with the little girl/lizard ? Couldn't it have been accelerated by the owner trying to "lay" on the girl, to prevent further injury. Wouldn't the dog interpret that as, "Hey Mom needs help trying to restrain that person/animal." What type of drive is involved here? The exictment my dogs feel seems to become intense when I am involved with the struggle with another animal. Susan

It is very difficult to describe all of dog behavior using drive theory. It just doesn't work unless you are describing a simple specific behavior.

Drive interaction is another issue that clouds the specific "drive" that a dog is "using".

These stories are so difficult to judge, due to some people's (mis)perceptions of a dog's actions/intentions. For example, the "he's friendly, except for.. (insert excuse here)", which goes along with "he's trained, except when (insert excuse here)". There could have been many signs up to that point that the owner missed/ignored/etc.

And now responsible owners have to pay for this in the form of insurance and scorn from the public (not to mention BSL).

I never let anyone walk my dogs that isn't strong enough to control them.

Yes, it is too hard to judge without knowing more about the training methods used, and the relationship between human and dog. Even with all of that information, the fact remains that dogs can be unpredictable, so it's important to be prepared to control your animal at any time, in any place.