Caniche,

I meant I was surprised that Schnauzergirl- Deanna and I were arguing, not you. I think you and I posted at about the same time. Sorry for confusion

It was good to read your viewpoint

Round here they have started to import Mals because the GSDs were not good enough.
Sorry, it is not because the GSDs aren't good enough. It has to do with economics. A puppy GSD with the potential to do the work is $1000-$1800. A puppy Mal with the potential is $400-$700. The green dogs, and adults go up exponentially. Also, size has a little to do with it also.

Now as far as the rest of this idealogy...

Everyone loves to quote Max. Was it me or didn't he die like Early 1900's? I believe alot has changed in the world since then. Training styles and so forth. Needs of the dog. Out of that need there has been a change in the breed. Use him as a guidance but don't get lost in his words.

I would like to meet the PSD that could also lead the blind. That would be a 1 in 1,000,000,000 dog.

The statement about having to meet some real police dog handlers, and they will tell you that thier best police dogs will be able to lead the blind and act as patrol dogs. I don't know about that. I can also tell you that I have trained with what is suppose to be the some of the best trainers that England has, and from the dogs, and thier knowledge on bite training, I would question any advice from them. I can say that from my personal experience from working with them, and reading articles written by British Police dogs handers, thier lack of knowledge shows in thier judgement of evalulating dogs, and setting-up a proper training program.

Michael,

I would agree with you from what I have seen in UK. One of my ambitions is to build a relationship with a police dog training program and use my canine behaviour quals and breeding, training experience to help them make changes. This is a long term goal though - I don't expect it to happen overnight.

I don't think their flirtation with Mals will last very long either.

My impressions of what a good, serious police dog handler would expect from his dog have been made from what I have read here on this site and on this board over the last year and a half.

Todd: Yeah I agree - 1 in a 1,000,000 AIM HIGH

Well Schutzhund is advancing all over Great Britain, and with that comes knowledge. Both good and bad. With the E.U> it will be easier to breed to outside stock now also. I think this is good for the UK. Eveything takes times, so stick with it. Good Luck. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

In an ideal world, all the dogs would have a working temperament. Even your basic pet owner can handle a solid working temperament dog. It really isn't that hard. The problem has become the extreams in the temperament department. I have railed on this before.

The temperament issue at this point isn't hardness, it isn't the ability to do work, it is the idea that for a dog to work it has to be a rank handler hard animal. This isn't the case. It certainly isn't the ideal. The idea that an acceptable working dog would have to be muzzled to be in public is just crazy to me. But i see it all the time. Part of the issue is poor training, part is poor socialization of YOUNG dogs, and part is the fallacy that it takes a rank handler hard dog to do the work. All 3 in equal proportions.

The idea that the dog for a guide dog, shephard, sport, pet, agility/fly ball, or PSD have to be of different temperaments is not the case. They can all have the same temperament and excell at the work. It is not necessary for the dog to be rank and handler hard to do any of these things. These are not the chacteristics that make for a solid dog. Now the proper dog may not be the absolute tops in Sch, but that isn't really the goal over all. Much of the things that make for a top Sch dog are a result of imprinting, time and training.

A hard dog doesn't have to be handler hard. A hard dog doesn't have to be rank. He just has to have the drives to work. The chacteristics aren't linked. It is easier to make a compromise and accept it in a dog that has all the other qualities, but it isn't required.

I have talked about this dog ad nauseum, but. This is a dog that sat at the kitchen table being fed by a 2 y/o, even allowing her to take food from his mouth. Yet he held people 3 times, 2 times after being shot with a shot gun and once with a broken jaw. Is this a dog that is hard enough to do acceptable work? Think he could function as a PSD? I know that he would easily have been a therapy dog had the program existed. He was perfect with anyboy, especially children.

This should be the goal for breeding, not the handler hard, rank dogs with drives so high that a pet owner can't handle the dog. The chacteristics that make a good dog for a pet are the same chacteristics that can make a good PSD. It is when those drives aren't properly balanced that the problems come in.

A good conformation is important in a workingdog, if it should be able to work hard for a long period of time. But it´s only the structure of the body that matters, not coulors or small details that not affects workingability. But why introduce showlines to better conformation? They have even worser structure than the workinglines, there is no need for the GSD to look like it often does in the showring, but also in many workinglines. Look at the mal or Dutch sheperd, that is the right conformation for a workingdog of sheperdogtype.

I agree that breeders should work for the same goal in the GSD, which is a dog capable of policework. We can´t have a breed that are suited for all kinds of servicework, because certain traits are wanted in a PSD that is not wanted in a guidedog or narcoticdog. You don´t want sharpness and defence in a guidedog or narcoticdog, this will only be a hinder in their work. There is a reason why the labrador is such a good guidedog and narcdog. In a guidedog you want a very calm dog with good nerves, in a narcdog a dog with high preydrive but with no sharpness and defence that will make him concentrate less on his work, labradors and spaniels from huntinglines are very well suited as narcdogs. But they can´t do protectionwork.
If we want a GSDs that could do all kinds of servicework, then we have a breed that are of not good at any work, who will have a PSD without some sharpness, and who will have a guidedog with sharpness? It´s better to use breeds that are best in their areas, instead of creating a universal GSD that are supposed to do all.

LOL, your such a Battle Axe Deanna. Easy killer . . . those eyes are going to pop out of your head if you keep rolling them like that.

Do one thing... do it well. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Been rolling them like this for 25 years and they haven't popped out yet. It is amazing that I made it to adulthood without getting killed for being a smart@$$.<br /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />