Quote:

Originally posted by VanCamp:
to direct your training and breeding for 100% sporto competition work is a waste of time AND ultimately hurtful to the GSD breed as a whole. It doesn't adequately evaluate the worth of a working dog...

I agree the JUDGES and scores don't adequately evaluate the dog as potential breeding material. Judges are constrained by a code of points which they are required to follow; if a skilled trainer is able to create a picture that fulfills the requirements, even tho the dog may be very weak, then the judge is obligated to award points. However - I disagree that the work itself doesn't give breeders an excellent opportunity to evaluate the dog IF THEY HAVE EYES AND KNOW HOW TO READ A DOG!!! If you only breed based on points, then yes you are hurting the breed, but you are also NOT a knowledgeable breeder! The knowledgeable dog person can easily see the difference between the prey monster who is only interested in his sleeve vs the dog who truly wants to fight the man. He can see the conflict/nervousness in a weak nerved dog, even if the point requirements have been met with precision. You have to look past the scores and actually evaluate the dog's work. It will give you a good start to choosing potential breeders. Of course it is ONLY a start - breeders should see the dog off the field as well, to evaluate what is bad training vs. what are the real abilities/temperament of the dog, how is he socially, etc etc.

Is there ANY endeavour that a GSD can be involved in that provides any better opportunity to evaluate the dog? Herding, guide dog, SAR, police - all show you SOME aspects of the dog's abilities, but for those who would instantly say police work is the end-all, be-all, look at it like this: Everyone espouses how fantastic Itor is. How many are basing that opinion upon having ridden with Bernhard on the job and witnessing actual street work vs how many are in love with him based upon seeing him do some sport-style protection training at seminars/training sessions or performing in ritualized competitions? The VAST majority of you have only seen him in "sport" style settings/seminars, yet you are able to see into the dog and recognize that there is something special about him. The problem isn't with the sport or people who train for the sport; the problem lies with breeders whose sole goal is to make money, not improve the breed - so they breed point dogs to point dogs cuz that's what sells easily and for high prices. But if you know what the heck you're looking at, the sport DOES provide ample opportunity to see the true nature of the dog.

See, I told you my opinion was in the minority.

Great post Sch3Fh2!!!!!!
Hey Ed, I do go to trials and I'll tell you, I knew about the third person called a judge. No big secret to me.
You pointed out that the dog would lose, what about seven points due to the slow blind search and his B@H. That seemed to be a lot considering that he scored a 100 in a big trial. No reson to get bent out of whack. I do visit and watch trials, and guess what COMPETE every so often. The fact that Bernhard felt that his dog would get the lower score in the BSP, I was just wondering why those areas would cost him so many points when he did get a 100. I am not ignorant to the fact that judges views change, trial conditions are sometimes harder, or easier, the judge likes you etc. I was just inrested.
As far as the sport goes, it is a great way to test a dog, like SCHFH2 stated, if you know what you are looking for. Titles can be purchased, given etc. I have owned dogs that would not do a retrieve that were Sch3.
I think it all goes to who is breeding the dogs and thier true goal and experinence. Look at Ed's program, he has not titled any of his home-grown females, but he has produced a World Competitor, and some Police Service dogs. Does this prove that tiles do not matter? But at the same time, the history of these dogs are from Sch titled dogs. Is till think that you cannot tell everything about a dog, unitl it has had some training applied to it. YOu can see alot, but not everything. Do I feel that you need a SCH title to be breed worthy, of course not.
I still think that no matter what, if there is a great dog that is Sch titled and say in the BSP his value would be not just that he is a great dog, but that he was in the BSP and did well. Look at what was said about Itor, they seen him sit calmly for the ball, and perform a routine, the vast majority, have labled him a great animal for that, not viewing him on the street. Coupled that he is owned by Bernhard.

The fact that Bernhard felt that his dog would get the lower score in the BSP, I was just wondering why those areas would cost him so many points when he did get a 100.

The Bundesseiger is the Ch., judging is hard. Simple enough to understand that there is a sliding scale that goes up from club trial, landesgroupen, to the national and world championships. It isn't complicated.Couple that with the simple fact that the SchH trial doesn't look at everything in a dog like hunting drive, and environmental insecurities and even nerve strength to a degree and many of the answers to the questions about why schutzhund scores and competition isn't all that is necessary to know about a dog to breed.
As far as Lord is concerned, I'm not convinced his dogs carry the level of fight drive and too many have problems on slick floors and difficult environments for me. Alk was a nice competition dog with good dog training from the start all the way through his career for the WPO but not a producer of top end working dogs, nor was he a top end working dog. Now, this is not a knock against Greg, he did nice work with a dog from popular lines. He bred him quite a bit and I've had the oportunity to view quite a few progeny from several bitches. Nice beginners sport dogs were produced.
Todd mentions Umsa Bungalow.....maybe the greatest single contributing factor to the working GSD is her presence ina pedigree. I'm a real fan of hers, I wish I could have seen her.
As far as Ferro is concerned, nice sport dogs, low fight drive with some pretty damned notable exceptions and their nerves are more like malinois than GSD's. I have done a bunch of these dogs in police work and many many have environmental problems, things like slick floors and don't like the dark, or stairwells. Same dogs would be able to perform on the sport field nicely, in fact the thin nerves make them very quick in obedience, therefore their popularity right now when you must get really high points in obedience in all three phases to do well.
Just my two cents on the subject/s

I'm liking the direction this thread is going. The stud that I am going to be using is line bred to Umsa 3-4 and is a Ron v Peko Haus son.

Kevin rocks. . .

I agree with Kevin that Sch cannot tell all, but I do not think that a solution lies in dismissing a working requirment. I also do not feel that just because a dog is a Police Dog, makes him all that either, as some believe. In this country, I can at least say in Florida, about 1/2 the dogs in service should not be there.
I thnk the answer lies in a middle ground. Look at Mink, it was not until the famous BSP Lewis that,that line was all that popular. If Lewis was not in the BSP and did not do as well as he did, not many would have heard of Mink.
With Lord, I think the best way to aquire the line would be through Manto. I have seen some very nice solid dogs from him.
Fero, I think it depends on how close he is, and what he is bred with. Kevin is correct in saying that the nerves are like a Malinois.
As far as Bernhard and Itor, I was just intrested to see if it was more then just the diffrent levels of judging. A guy in Germany that I know always gets a 292 or better, and when you check the book, it is normally under the same judge. I have seen Itor on tape, and two of my friends have seen him in person, and said he was very nice and had was solid in bite work. His B@H did not look that faulty for the sport. I understand the diffrence in the requirments for the DPO B@H.

I agree with Kevin that Sch cannot tel all, but I do not think that a soulotion lies in dismissing a working requiment. I also do not feel that just because a dog is a Police dog makes him all that either, as some believe. In this country I can at least say in Florida about 1/2 the dogs in service should not be there.

Certainly one should not dismiss the working requirement. Just, when evaluating the dog the picture is not complete.
I can honestly say, that when speaking from my own environment that the police dogs are better on average than the sport dogs. Again, this is my environmnent and the dogs are generally chosen by me. When I travel I see a wide range of dogs in both sport and police sometimes the sport dogs are better animals and sometimes the police dogs are.

Well Kevin you are one of the few in this country to have the in-depth knowledge that would direct oneself to pick the correctly suited animal for a PSD. I have yet to meet a LEO that has the knowledge that you have. Not to say that there is noone else, just that i have not met him/her. I would not doubt that the dogs in your envoirment are better then most of the sport dogs that are in your area.
I just find it puzzling and mis-informing when I hear Police Officers dismissing the sport, when thier own street dogs do not have the abiltity to perform respectable bite work. I have watched you on video and admire your view on aggression/fight drive.
I still believe that a test for breeding is needed, something to mirror the ZTP or the old East German Korung. A title that could be attained in a day of two testing the animals breed worthyness, not the trainers abilty. I think that this is the direction we need to go for the working GSD.
Anyone have any views on the Lord son Manto?

Manto's son Glenn von der Hühnergasse placed second at the 2000 BSP with a 291 V rating.
Tyson von der Kine was 80th with a 269.

I personally like his two most famous sons Balli and Biani Panta-rei. I was going to buy Biani and at the last minute they changed their minds.

Not a big fan of Black and Tan but hey. Good dog.

These two dogs you speak of are in the Czeck? What are they like? I have not seen any sons from the 2nd place BSP, but have seen four other sons, and they were all nice dogs that I would not have minded owning. I have seen two bitches in person that were also very nice females. Thier tempermentsw were all free and open, but could be civil. Good bone on them also.
There is suppose to be one in NJ that has a big head and good bone, but not the most handsome dog. But I hear is a tough dog, that is a bit of a handler fighter at times, but is now SCH 3 with over 295 if I am correct. And he is only 2 1/2 yrs old.