I meant so many trainers I spoke to recommended getting a gun to me. I wasn't referring to anyone here.

Rosep,

There are liablity issues for the trainer involved with the sale of a PPD. Both from the client and any potential "victims". If the trainer recomends you get a gun and you shoot someone they won't be liable for that. Personaly I have always thought a similar type of screening needs to go in to the sale of a puppy from "working lines". Buying a trained dog also has other liabilities built in to it. You have not raised or trained the dog so you have a time frame that the dog is identifing the "good guy's" from the "bad guys". There is some time involved with that bonding.

One of the things you learn when you train a dog is what the dog's threshold of action. You learn to read the dog, and that gives you an advantage in anticipating the dog's actions. Many of the trainers that won't sell you a trained dog will train a dog for you if you bring them a puppy. Most of the trainers I know don't have trained dogs around that aren't spoken for. First you get the client and then the dog and finish out the training on the dog. That is a large commitment of time and money, and dog training really doesn't pay all that well. If you have a real and immediate need for the dog you are less likely to back out on the deal and leave the trainer holding the bag. What most people really want is a big dog that barks... not a PPD.

OK let me rephrase: Comparing the process of obtaining a firearm and the process of obtaining a trained PPD is like comparing apples to oranges. Firearms are regulated by the Federal government. PPDs are not.

I find it comforting that so many trainers would be so cautious in screening potential buyers.

I'm not trying to be insulting. I'm glad to see that Phil is doing his homework, and I'm especially glad for so many knowledgeable people who are willing to offer their perspective! Thank you! If I ever decide to do protection training, this is the first place I will come to!

I wasn't referring to anyone on this board who would take the time and trouble to ask questions, and learn before ever acquiring a PPD. I was referring to JQ Public. One advantage of getting a puppy would be that you would learn with the puppy throughout the training process. By the time the dog is ready to be used, you'd be pretty familiar with his stress threshholds and reactions, and know how to handle him. Anyone willing to go through this entire process with the right trainers helping would be much, much less of a liability than a person who just wants to go out and buy a trained dog. He or she would also be much more likely to keep up the training.

Yes I agree that buying a gun is a great responsibility. And it is not a companion. But I don't think it takes near as much commitment as training, and then maintaining the training of a thinking animal. Probably the reason so many trainers have this pat answer for a person's queries is their genuine concern for the good of dogs. I'm glad to hear that trainers are so conscientious about selling a dog for such a purpose as PPD.

Richard you're right. Many people I've spoken to that think they want an already trained PPD don't after they learn more about it. I usually tell them just to get a dog that barks.

JParker and Sharon,

I don't disagree with you and didn't mean to give the impression I did. I agree that potential buyers should be screened. Absolutely.

I don't regret getting a trained adult - it was a tough decision though. So many things to consider. Its worked out better than I could have hoped.

Phil, find out as much as you can and the decision you make will be the right one for you.

Hey all,

Thanks for the replies so far, I can use all the help and knowledge I can get. Thus my reason for being here.

As for the gun/dog comparason: I own several firearms. However, in Illinois one cannot obtain a license to carry a handgun concealed for protection. I'd carry one, but its illegal. If I should carry/use one despite the law, I would suffer stiff penalities by State and Military law, not to mention law-suits.

The dog was suggested for multiple reasons:

1. I'm already looking for a good breeder to purchase a pup from, as I want the added companionship. This dog would be with me at all times possible.

2. When I'm out running/jogging/walking the neighborhoods (not very safe to do, but its something I enjoy) the dog is more of a visible deterrent.

3. Its also a psychological deterrent. A gun is one thing - anyone can get a gun. A trained dog is another - they tend to make the average mugger think twice.

4. I spend much of my off-duty time in the kennels at base helping with the training of our MWD's (Military Working Dogs). I've got no objections, nor any problems, in spending much of my time doing training with my own dog.

As far as liability is concerned - I'm an active duty Air Force Security Policeman. I've been trained in the Use of Force on the same level as many police agencies around the country (a new system, not the old "Intent, opportunity, capability" crap that some of you may be familiar with). Unfortunately, when off-duty, many of my levels of force are automatically eliminated by state law (no firearms, no baton, no pepperspray). I'm left with fight or flight. I'd prefer flight, as I'd rather avoid confrontation if at all possible. However, I feel my canine companion could change the odds even slightly if I'm presented in a "fight" situation.

I'm not looking for an "attack" dog. I don't want a dog that will attack for no reason, unprovoked, and is un-sociable. However, I would like a dog that is trained to defend, should the need arise.

I hope this helps, and again thanks alot.

Phil the SP

Caveat emptor! (Let the buyer beware!)

Some "trained" PP dogs are not at all what they are hyped up to be. Many a buyer is suckered into buying a half-baked dog. Then to add insult to injury, these dogs are sold to half-baked handlers who don't know how to handle the dogs they've just bought.

Case in point: "Crystal" (her screen name only) shelled out $3500.00 for a PP dog from some "World o' Dogs" trainer with an exorbitant list of claims. She's 18 and feels threatened by a nasty relative. The solution? PPD. So she shells out big bucks for a 2 year old male GSD with no pedigree but a very fat list of what he should be trained to do. Can you see the disappointment coming? Yup.

From her description of her dog, she got hosed. From her *expectations* of a PPD, she was going to get hosed no matter what she bought. What "Crystal" wants is Lassie with fangs. Yeah right.

Most folks don't recognize their own role in having a PPD. From Crystal's description of the dog it sounds like it might be a good SchH prospect. That "bouncing off the walls" energy that she despises could be channeled into something productive, like SchH or Agility. Too bad she's not up for the task.

So Phil, if you buy a PPD, not only do you have to do your homework on the breeder and training, be prepared to work the dog after you've bought it. Don't be naive and assume that this dog can be turned on and off like a kitchen appliance. So many mistakes are so easily preventable. All it takes is some common sense.

Yvette

Phil,

Having followed your posts I am willing to make a recomendation. I would get a puppy. If you like the training that much plan on doing some sport work with the dog. Schutzhund may not be the best sport for what you want, but it would work. Monio Ring, french ring or NAPD would be better trials for what you want from the dog. There is no NAPD clubs in that area, but you could end up in California, Nevada, Texas, or Arizona where there are clubs for NAPD. The comment about Schutzhund is not a knock on Schutzhund, but a reflection of what you want the dog to do. They type of dog you describe will probably lose a lot of points in Schutzhund because of the other training you will want to put in to the dog. The other 3 sports are closer to what you want the dog to do. The sport work will provide the opportunity to keep the dog in good form for a maintance of the training.

By the time the dog is 6-10 months old it will be big enough to be the deterant you want. I lived in some of the areas you describe while I was in the Navy, the size of dog will discourage most of the casual theifs/muggers that you will come across. The dogs we had discouraged all the neighborhood problems. It was funny to watch, at one house we lived in the sidewalk was only on our side of the street. People would walk down the side walk to the back of our house, and then cross the street until they were past our house and come back. Nobody wanted to even try our dogs. Most of the training you really need will be completed by the time the dog is about a year old. It will not be a functional PPD until it is 1 1/2 to 2 years old.

Since you seem to enjoy the training so much I think you will be much happier with a dog you train your self as opposed to a "ready made". You will probably want to find a Protection club anyway as the equipment involved is expensive and it probably will not provide a good return to train just one dog. Plus there is other equipment like blinds, and other things that will drive the price up in a hurry. I think you will like the process of trial ing the dog. For the most part the people involved in the dog sports are very nice, and supportive of new folks. It is also fun to hang out with people that share the same interests.

From what I saw on the web site Ed has one litter ready to go and acouple of more on the ground (I didn't notice how old they were) and at least one more on the way that will suit your purposes nicely. I would also get the tape "Bite Training Puppies". It is very good and will provide a sound foundation for the puppy to start the real work later. Have fun and welcome to our world.

I agree with the "puppy" idea, except for one thing. Phil mentioned that he would like the dog to be his running/
jogging/ walking partner. How old does the puppy need to be before he can safely do this kind of exercise? Just wondered if this is an issue.