Vancamp, how the heck could you forget Gomo?

Cindy, are you referring to Gomo Schieferscholss? or another Gomo?? It's interesting to me personally that some of the dogs VanCamp mentioned are in the pedigree of my pup's dam. Tom zPS (and therefore cordon An-Sat) and Grim. No linebreeding on Grim however. Robert, I'm interesting if perhaps you can elaborate on how dogs such as the ones demonstrate social agression and other positive traits - can you describe if these traits are able to be noticed on a trial field or is this behaviour exhibited day-to-day but not necessarily in a SCH or ZVV trial??

Also a breeder here in Australia has a Conner Leinholz daughter (or did have, she has recently been sold -)Robert since it would be getting off topic maybe you could PM me with some further opinion on Conner??

Regards;
Dave.

So are we accepting that "social aggression" "short nerved" and "Sharpness" are basically refering to the same character in a dog?

I forgot Gomo. . .who is so fabulously linebred on Bernd Lierberg. . .and I also forgot the most fabulous bitch Nyner who will pass on Gomo's greatness to a little known dog named Precious.


Hmmmm. . .nearly all the dogs I find I like either come from deep Czech country border/guarding stock, or come down from Greif/Bernd combinations.


The Conner tangent: Conner is a damn fine producer of hard, strong willed, drivy, and healthy old world Western German style working dogs. My close friend in Belgium, who will only work Malinois and mixes, just sold his GREAT 3-3 Elgos linebred Malinois so he could buy a Conner son in San Jose for his next NVBK competition dog. We saw the dog in San Jose this spring, and HOLY CRAP is he a hard, edgy but solid, working machine. Dog stays in CONTROLLED high high drive for as long as there is a decoy present anywhere. He has a "looking for trouble" attitude anywhere he goes. He has accessible defensive drives, but is a dog that works in fight drive. You only see defense where it has been illicited for showy reasons. He is an amazing dog,in a social setting he will try to force you into a confrontation if allowed to. He scares me. LOL His mother is a Crok daughter. he he he I would have loved to buy the dog, but the price was outrageous. (11K)

Matehew,
Nope!!
Sharpness is such a poorly defined trait that I don't used it, but if I did, I would use it to describe a temperment flaw.

Social aggression usually has both elements of temperment and behavioral learning as components of it ( at least in my book ), but it's the genetic part of it that's valuable to breeders.

"Short-nerved" is closer to the term "high drive". A short nerved dog may be a complete lover, without an aggressive bone in his body.

This is what I want to hear in this topic. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Vancamp, I am curious of some of the dogs you mentioned. How about Cordon and his son Tom, along with Andy Bilsaule, and Caro Allerswald. I am really interested in Caro, because I am planning a breeding to my female with a dog who is line bred heavily on this dog. My dog goes back on Andy and I planned on buying a dog who was a Tom son. So these dogs Im very interested in. I plan on throwing out some dogs after I hear comments on these. Also, what about Titus z PS?

I don't like to hear sharpness defined as a temperament flaw, I like to hear it defined as a quickness to react to stimuli with an aggressive response. Very simple, and very clear.

In reading classic documents on GSDs sharpness is regarded as a necessity in the breed. You can't get around the term in these old translated texts, so I'd hate to continue with the misuse the word gets these days from many trainers who describe a spooky weak nerved dog as "sharp".

Which may be the case, but the sharp part is the trait of the dog to react at the drop of a hat with aggression . . .not a term defining what type of reaction you get or what triggered the reaction. We've got plenty of other terms to describe those behaviors better.

If the term has taken on negative meanings, it is because some jokers aren't very GSD savy. I'd hate for us to say that a sharp dog is a bad dog, or that sharpness is a terrible flaw, and then have some novice go read how sharp the breed is in half of the old texts that are in print in the world. What would he think then? What would he think when reading von Stephanitz opine on the virtue of the sharp bitches he likes for service work?

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I'm a lot happier with the term "low defensive threshold" as opposed to "sharpness" ( so would my insurance agent ), although they mean much the same thing - I'm just trying to use accurate terms here.
We'll always have a bit of a disadvantage when using old German terms to describe things - hell, the Germans are famous for just making up words to describe something that is a difficult to explain concept ( Adolph Hitler's speechs are *full* of words that he apparently made up on the spot, to give a historical example )

Just look at our discussion between "weak-nerved" and "short-nerved" as an example. I've heard those terms explained by Bernhard half a dozen times now in the Flinks seminars, but it ultimately is a translation from a foreign language, which leaves a little bit of confusion in the mind of the person hearing it..... "did he mean hyper...or spastic?" <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

 Quote:

Originally posted by Will Rambeau:
I'm a lot happier with the term "low defensive threshold" as opposed to "sharpness" ( so would my insurance agent ), although they mean much the same thing - I'm just trying to use accurate terms here.

Aren't semantics a bitch? Don't mean to split hair; but sharpnes would mean active aggressive reaction towards threat. Now would that part not come after defensive threshold is steped over?

I mean that saying that dog with low defensive threshold is good dog does not hold water, because as i am shure you all know there are dogs that have low defense threshold and run away when it is steped over.
Same for high defensive threshold.

I'd say (from things i read) that thresholds are directly connected with nerves and has nothing to do with how dog copes with threat when he actualy feels himselve in danger.

Bah, after rereading my post i saw i did not put it right. I meant that "sharp" would be better described as: dog with lower defense threshold that deals with threat through active aggression. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> hope this makes more sense than that previous babble (i was drinking first coffe than).

VanCamp just PM'd me with an *awesome* explanation of "sharpness" - I've aksed him to post it here, as it was primo!

*waits impatiently*