forgot to add, NO dog aggression nor fight drive. He has fight drive, but only when it's truely needed.

Brandi, a serious question for you. How do you know that your dog has fight drive?

I am asking this because fight drive is by *far* the most rare drive in a dog. After training serious dogs for decades now, I have seen less than three dozen dogs ( and that includes many,many, Police Patrol dogs ) that I considered to have real fight drive.
I have heard from several respected dog vendors ( that supply many of the Police Departments in the U.S. ) that lack of dogs with true fight drive is the single biggest obstacle that they encounter in providing Patrol dogs to departments.

Brandi - sometime people confuse very active prey drive with fight drive. This is not uncommone with dogs line bred on Fero. Fat is that it is very common.

Like Ed said, I must have confused the definition of fight drive. I guess my definition of fight drive (I thought) was a dog that would "fight" if threatened and if it's handler is threatened. That's what I thought it meant. By my reply earlier I just meant that my dog would fight if he had to.(sleave or no sleave)
That's all. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

*Trolling*
*Editted*

If you're going to challenge people with the "rude" crap again, you'll need to go elsewhere. Consider this a warning. You only get one.

Will Rambeau
Moderator

as long as you are back, i might as well take this opportunity to set the record straight with you regarding my dogs. just so you know......i did not go looking for mink,link or fero blood. it just happened to be there. in reality, what i am is a bit of a fado freak, but to get the fado grandkids and great grandkids you are also going to get some other blood. the 6 month old that has link 3 times on her pedigree also has fado twice. the 3 yr. old with mink/fero has fado thru her dam and the 1 yr. old with link/fero has fado thru his sire. when the time comes to look for another dog, i will be hoping to find something i like with fado/orry.

Carolyn, think the best thing to do when getting any dog, is to first find what you think you want, and then start researching for a breeder.

A good, responsible breeder will absolutely know their lines and have done all the research you are trying to plod thru. The YEARS of knowledge and skills a good breeder has, is very difficult for a novice (like I am) at doing the research on the lines. Especially by just looking at the paper pedigrees and hearing rumors.

Knowing their dogs means they will be able to tell you the drive of the bitch and the male. The training they have done with the parent dogs is a good place to start. The PURPOSE of their breeding program (just to make money? or improve the 'looks' of their dogs? or the size of the breed (bigger is better, right?), or have a better 'protection' dog? or Schutzund dog? or herding lines?

Good, responsible breeders have years of experience that it's hard to duplicate until you also have years in with the breed and type of dog you decide on. I know I chose to rely on them, tell them what I was looking for, and ask if their dogs would fit my needs. Since a good breeder takes their pups back if it's a bad fit (or unhealthy dog) and a good breeder will NOT just sell a pup to make money, their goal is the same as yours. To find the BEST owner for a permanant happy home for each and every one of their pups.

So rather than maybe definitely including or excluding a dog/bitch in a pedigree, I think I would work on researching for a good breeder who is breeding dogs that fit your needs. email them, phone them, talk to them, etc. It's amazing how you can start weeding out the ones that do not fit your needs from those who start to look good.

I'm gonna throw my 2 cents in here.
When breeding to Mink stuff you occasionally get very hectic behavior. Handlers can get bit in this situation and most call it handler aggression. They often become stressed and hectic and put anything in their mouth, including the handler.
I think this is from linebreeding on Greif myself. Kinda produces some crazy dogs that can't contain themselves at times.
I still have a scar from Lando Malatesta... Lewis' littermate that was a member of my K-9 Unit where he became so loaded while doing narcotics work that I was the closest drive satisfaction he could reach. He had no idea he bit me inside the thigh. Not handler aggression but it still hurt.
I've had several critters like this from these lines.
As far as Fero, mixed bag from what I have seen. he was bred so damned much to so many lines the only thing that is for sure is we're stuck with his blood in the working pedigree. Whether that is good we'll debate endlessly. But, it isn't handler aggression I see as the problem but an increasing number of dogs with environmental issues that seem to correlate to linebreeding on Fero. At least among the ones offered for sale for police work.
I do like Karthago stuff, and I do like Mink. But I also like Karlo Peko Haus. But, I am speaking from a non-sport position here. The emphasis on super big grips and flashy obedience instead of simply correct obedience will change the GSD fore ever. For better?? I don't know, but it doesn't appear that way right now.

i've already said more than plenty on this thread, but i just wanted to hop back in long enough to agree with kevin on the "hectic" behaviors of greif-line-bred dogs. the sad fact is that the true story about greif's nerve issues did not reach us (americans) until we had already imported a bunch of them. this doesn't mean that grief isn't usable, but just that we might use him in a different way; perhaps in conjunction with dogs that are a little less hectic. maybe less line-breeding and a little more complimentary breeding. it's only been the past couple of years that i've heard negative remarks about greif's nerves. it seems that up until then certain incidents had been kept underwraps......i can only assume to insure the market value of offspring. as a point of interest, the female in my earlier post (high drive, but nerve issues) was linebred sagus/greif and dingo haus gero. i do miss her horribly, but i'm not blind to the fact that she had some real problems.

Hectic drive behaviors yes, but nerve issues I'd argue against to the bitter end. When I see someone say nerve issues I think environmental problems, avoidance issues, mental weakness, holes in the dog's temperament. Those are not the things I see from Greif coming down from any of his popular sons or grandsons.

Hectic drive behaviors, loading like crazy, low drive thresholds/prey triggers, ect. . . I don't consider nerve issues. I consider that more drive than brains. Control issues aplenty. . .but I wouldn't call them nerve issues.

Karlo, Arthus, Mink, Sagus, Brando vom Karlmitblick, Rick vom Tiekerhook, Drechsler vom Warnautal, etc. . . Not what I call nerve issues. Plenty of other fun stuff, but not nerve issues. LOL

I'd in fact say the opposite, that Greif and his sons/grandsons improve nerves. Linebreeding on Greif seems to raise avoidance thresholds, raise defensive thresholds, and help environmental issues in my limited experience.


I wonder what Ed has to say about Greif's progeny and nerves? I'd venture that he's done more linebreeding to Greif than any other breeder alive from looking at his stud dogs and the number of litters over the years. (just a guess)