What is very discouraging as a beginner to Schutzhund is that there appears to be NO incentive to train my own dog...When I finally am ready to go for the BH and the 1, how many of those dogs I'm competing against will have been trained by professionals in Germany? I can only guess that if i get to go for the 3, the majority of the competition will be dogs trained and titled in Europe first, and I will look like a high school varsity team trying to play the Yankees.
Has anyone seen Ed's tape "Visiting Flinks' Sch. Club"? There is a young boy working a puppy; Ed says we'll probably see him in the Bundessieger one day. Well, are there any young people like that in Schutzhund training in hopes of making the World's team? No? Well, why should they?
By the way, in my original post i stated that a TD of a club I visited charges 10,000 to take a green dog to Sch1: this IS in addition to club fees, and that 10,000 is NOT for me sending the dog to him for 3 months and getting trained. That is the fee for going to the club three times a week for as long as it takes until he FEELS the dog is ready to go to trial and score high, mostly in trials at his own field, judged by his german friend. All the other clubs I visited charge fees and dues of course, and they are reasonable. But at these clubs, you have to pay the helper 50-150 per session in bitework. That is PER session on top of club fees. is it like this in Europe?
If I'm going to attempt to take my dog to Sch3 from a puppy, apparently it's going to cost me a lot of money, and the whole time I'll be competing against, essentially, professionals. So if people here keep buying these European trained and titled dogs, does anyone REALLY learn HOW to foundation train a dog, and bring it all the way to a 3? If you think about it, picture an upside down pyramid, and that's how I'm thinking of USA schutzhund: no base.

What is very discouraging as a beginner to Schutzhund is that there appears to be NO incentive to train my own dog... I am sorry, maybe I am in a bad mood or something. But if you don't know the answer to this question...sell your dog and go get a cat!

This last post seems to me to be a lot of whining. Now, I have dogs that I have brought over here trained. I also have dogs that I have titled and trained personally. Have I been on the World's NO!. Will I be someday. GUARANTEED!

If you are so worried about competing against professionals look at the Conformation ring. Heck change sports look at Golf. So what if the dog was trained by professionals. SOMEBODY trained it. Somebody has to train your dog. You are still competing against a team. The dog/human. Most mistakes are human errors. So fix your human errors.

I love it when people complain about the professionals, stating it is not fair to the amateur. When the amateur puts in the same amount of time and effort, guess what? No longer amateur.

Todd,
Pardon me for whining, but you are a professional dog trainer and breeder. I'm assuming you have titled seversal of your own dogs to sch.3 and therefore you speak with authority and experience, so I am reading your comment with the respect it therefore deserves. When you step on to the field to title your dog as a 3, have you or will you "whine" when you get a 280, and some 25 year old who's dad just bought her a sch 3 straight from germany just gets a 293, and this is her FIRST trial? How will you feel as a PROFESSIONAL, and i that case how many people will question your abilities as a trainer, as they should?
To compare Schutzhund to golf is not a very good comparison, as in Golf the golfer is the only one competing...he is the competing against the score book on his own. He had to gain all the skills himself. While there may be an amount of talent and skill needed to maintain the high level of training the germans gave to the dog, as mentioned above, it is still not the same amount of talent and skill needed to train a dog from a puppy. At any level. So am I understanding it right that you could care less that someone with less than half the experience and knowledge and skill you have beats you at a trial, and beats you bad, and you won't "whine"?
Additionally, my post was NOT to whine....I was wondering if others thought that Schutzhund in this country lacks, because of people pay others to train and title their dogs, a base of knowledge and prevents new people from putting in the effort it takes to raise and train a dog from a puppy....sorry if i come across as a whiner to you....

Scott007--

I think you're coming at this with the wrong outlook.

I'll echo Five-O Joe and his comment about being on the cover of Schutzhund USA... I'm not about to knock the training skills of many of the top SchH competitors, but I have seen them at some of the big trials and make no mistake, you are looking at some guys and gals (with notable exceptions) with VERY LARGE EGOS. I'm sure that they love to train their dogs, but a big part of what drives them is the trophies, the admiration, and the magazine covers.

Forget the Nationals, that's not a realistic goal for someone just getting started in the sport.

I heard from an old friend of mine last night. He came up the hard way, took his first dog through the BH and the SchH1, started another dog at about the same time the first dog got the 1 and took that dog (with a LOT of effort) to SchH3. A puppy from the latter dog showed great promise, and in the meantime my friend had learned a great, great deal about how to train a dog. This "promising puppy" is now 5X SchH3 and is going to the Nationals this year... and, get this, the dog is not even a GSD or a Mal!

I'm telling you this story because IMHO this guy took the right attitude from the beginning. Do it for the sport, do it for the training experience, and don't worry about the rich little snots who go over to Germany and buy a dog that was in the Bundessieger. There's nothing you can do about them anyway.

Pete

Pete,
No! I am not talking about making it to the Nationals at all! And certainly not on the cover of any magazines! i am not shooting for the stars at all! I am simply making an observation about people i have seen at different clubs having titled dogs. AT THE CLUB LEVEL! And then I blew it up to ask about the verry top level of USA schutzhund. If the top competitors do it, then it will filter down to the club level, like in any sport. I'm simply trying to say that it looks real frustrating for anyone in this sport trying to do it on their own, because there are people like myself, with no knowledge or ecperience stepping on to a sch 3 field with a titled dog, and because of the money they've paid, and wil pay again, leads to many people who aren't good enough to charge outrageous fees. I agree Schutzhund is a great sport for learning about dogs, and having a great time, but when i heard that many people do not train their own dogs all the way, i was confused, and still am. Please don't think i'm trying to be something i'm not.....i simply want to learn.

I know this was primarily aimed at Todd, but I'm going to throw my $0.02 in.

Someone relatively new to the sport can learn a tremendous amount from a trained and titled dog. Additionally, you can learn a ton by raising a pup and titling him. It depends on what you want and the resources you have at your disposal. I didn't have a lot of $$ to drop on a dog, so I got an unreg. Mal from a friend of mine who had an accidental breeding. I am fortunate to live near and know a national/international level competitor in SchH who is also a professional trainer, with whom I've been fortunate enough to train with.

When I trial in Oct for my BH, I really don't give a S#!% what the other teams out there do, compared to me. I'm worried about myself and my dog. I'm not out there to impress anyone. There will be people there watching who look up to me and train with me, but its not about them. I'm confident I'll feel the same way later on for higher titles. I'm not a professional trainer, but I train a lot and am starting a club full of new people, some of which are professional trainers, just new to SchH.

So, in some respects SCOTT007 I think you are whining. People compete all over the world with dogs trained and titled by others. And believe me, just b/c a dog is already titled, those national/international level handlers are quite often VERY good trainers. The dog may already have a ScHH3, IPO3, FH2....but to compete regularly at those levels, a passing score alone won't cut it, they have to ttrain to improve the dog's and their performance.

Don't put so much pressure on yourself and your dog, you've got to do it b/c you like to, not to impress others.

I don't think you're trying to be something you're not... but let's keep it simple:

Who cares about the people, even at club level, who can afford a SchH3 import dog? Yes, it's true that sometimes, in some clubs, they will get more attention. And that IS a pity.

My point is that, in the meantime, YOU can work on your dog training. Get a few friends together and go tracking, or work on OB. Keep an eye open for experienced decoys (some of them from PP or ring sport, perhaps) who will be willing to work your dogs for free or for a couple of beers. A lot of the real learning you'll do will be with friends who also have green dogs and aren't top competitors. There are a large number of people in the sport who just like to hang out (not necessarily at club), train their dogs, and absorb knowledge.

The point is... the greatest thing to aspire to is to be a BETTER DOG TRAINER. Keep that foremost in your mind, and you can't go wrong.

Pete

I am pretty much a beginner at SCHH. I have a 2 year old male a 4 month old female. I have been to several trials and I have also seen the imported super dogs. It doesn't discourage me one bit. In fact it builds my drive(for a lackof bettr words)better handler and trainer. It take far more work and time to train a pup to a title and if you ask me it has to be much more rewarding. I can care less that Joe Schmoe bought a $8000 dog from germany and is earning titles. I will take my H.O.T. dog( <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> and compete wherever whenever. It makes me feel great knowing that I am the reason (along with some help) that my dogs are going to be good at the sport and be excellent pets. I went through 3 clubs before I settled. You need to search them out and find the one that fits your goals! My club is a 4 hour roundtrip and cost me $60-80 a week to travel too. Not including dues. But this is the club that catered to the needs of myself and my dogs the best. I am not in this for the business I am in it for the fun. Not just for me but for my dogs. So whether we are competing against the L.A LAKERS OF SCHUTZHUND TEAMS or the bad news bears, I could care less. We do it "FOR THE LOVE OF THE SPORT"

There is no question we all train our dogs and are on this board for the love of it, no question at all. What I am wondering is whether people think the buying of titled dogs and competing with them as their own has the effect of jacking up prices on trainers and helpers, overall. I liked what Kevin had to say about this effect on the sport, and no one seems to be adressing that.