Mike, you're just jealous <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Lee, you implied that you have seen Citty work? what can you tell me about her? I have a Citty vH Ming grandson. Love those Mink dogs....

 Quote:

Originally posted by Isabel Lambertz:
Mike, you're just jealous <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I might have been if I didn't already own a Lewis Malatesta daughter (linebred Greif & Ignaz), a female that's sire is almost identical to the U litter Burenswald (and she is linebred Harro & Sagus), or there's my favorite little butthead...my Stormfront's Brawnson son (which would be WAY too much dog for a newbie or impatient trainer). <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Actually, I am getting tired of seeing the trend of people not looking into what they're buying first, getting a dog, then finding out it isn't the best match for their style/ability (which usually ends up with the dog being sold, screwed up, or put down), when they could've gotten the right match with a little bit of research (read: EFFORT on their part). Yeah, I come off harsh, but like VC said, I'm very zealous (or passionate) about the breed. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

i'm going out on a limb here, but this is something that needs saying:

let's say i show up at your club to learn how to train my dog. you take one look at it and tell me that my dog can't work because it is from show lines. so six months later i come back with a well bred dog from working lines. you look at it, make a few comments and tell me its too much dog for me, that i can't handle it or will mess it up. its a catch 22. if you're a newbie and have a dog without much working potential its near impossible to get anyone to "waste" their time trying to help you train your dog. and if you're a newbie with a kick-ass dog they are going to convince you that you don't "deserve" such a dog.
another thing......lets just say that all the newbies decide to be good kids and never buy another dog that's too good for them. do you mean to tell me that all the people who are worthy of the good ones are actually going to have the time and energy to care for, love, and train all these dogs?
the newbies that grow an incredibly thick skin are the only ones that survive, because no matter where you go you will deal with criticism, some of it very harsh. i guess that's how we get "weeded" out.

 Quote:

Originally posted by patricia powers:
if you're a newbie and have a dog without much working potential its near impossible to get anyone to "waste" their time trying to help you train your dog. and if you're a newbie with a kick-ass dog they are going to convince you that you don't "deserve" such a dog.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Very good point, and dead on the money.

 Quote:

Originally posted by patricia powers:
lets just say that all the newbies decide to be good kids and never buy another dog that's too good for them. do you mean to tell me that all the people who are worthy of the good ones are actually going to have the time and energy to care for, love, and train all these dogs?

what I'm talking about isn't a matter of "good dogs", what I'm talking about is people that are inexperienced in dogs getting dogs from lines known for handler issues or that might be too much for them to handle. Regardless of what you might think, there are some lines that are more forgiving, easy to handle, and yet are still good dogs. A good support system (trainers, clubs, etc) always helps and makes life easier.

But, what about the someone gets a very handler hard and rank dog, yet has no "support system" and isn't very experienced? They got the dog because it looked nice, knew nothing about the pedigree, and before you know it, the dog is running the household. A little research can go a long way.

Now let's flip it around a little. What about the fairly inexperienced person, who has a very dominant personality (downright overbearing and rough), gets a dog for the same reasons as above, yet the lines are high in pack drive and a bit handler sensitive? A little research could've avoided a problem.

also.....please don't forget that we were all born into this world not knowing a thing. we all had to learn everything that we know today.

 Quote:

Originally posted by patricia powers:
and if you're a newbie with a kick-ass dog they are going to convince you that you don't "deserve" such a dog.

There are dogs that kick-ass and there are dogs that WILL kick YOUR ass. There is a lot of difference. It’s not a matter of "deserving" and I don’t think Mike was trying to denigrate a newbie by saying that they don’t deserve a good dog. People should know what they are getting into. Some dogs are better left for very experienced sport or police trainers.

 Quote:

Originally posted by patricia powers:
also.....please don't forget that we were all born into this world not knowing a thing. we all had to learn everything that we know today.

But there are two ways to learn...
1. Put for a little EFFORT to do some research and ask around
2. School of hard knocks

Most people are too lazy to go with #1, so they learn by method #2. Only problem is, method #2 could land you in the hospital.

 Quote:

Originally posted by Renee Felknor:
There are dogs that kick-ass and there are dogs that WILL kick YOUR ass. There is a lot of difference. It’s not a matter of "deserving" and I don’t think Mike was trying to denigrate a newbie by saying that they don’t deserve a good dog. People should know what they are getting into. Some dogs are better left for very experienced sport or police trainers.

EXACTLY!!! I knew you'd get what I was trying to say. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

yes, and i understand perfectly well what you are trying to say. my comments come from my own wretched experiences in trying to find a competent club/trainer. the point i'm trying to make is that if i had 10 different dogs and went to 10 different clubs, i would ALWAYS have the wrong dog. i do not intend to single out any one person here, i am just crying out against the way things are. without any kind of knowledge one can't make right choices and even if you do, somebody elses opinion will tell you that you didn't. the fact remains that a lot of newbies are treated really crappy. people forget that they were once new themselves.

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Originally posted by Mike Sanchez:
Mike, this could be her first dog. There's no need to jump up & down.

I read it as Mike being more than a litte tongue in cheek - seeing a dog with breeding he may admire, and the owner not quite realizing what they had and therefore, maybe - MAYBE - being in over their head - and offering to take it off their hands! Not as an attack...???

Happens more than anyone realizes - esp when breeders just sell to a checkbook or when people overstate their goals/experience etc! Been there - have one originally sold as a pet to someone clueless who I titled, koered and will continue to train and take all the way <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> !