Tonya, I personally think Brawnson's handler, Mike Deihl, deserves most of the credit. I don't think Brawnson is famous for producing dogs as good or better than himself; he just has a good handler. Also, Brawnson only has Fair hips, and that's definately an important factor to consider. So, it's fair to say he MIGHT be producing SOME dogs as good as himself, but they just don't have the same caliber of training? I guess I'm lazy, but I prefer to start with a top dog and make them great with good training than to start with a mediocre dog and make them good with great training. JMO
I did see an issue last night that probably needs to be delt with right away. The dogs were in a down/stay while the instructer weaved in and out between the dogs. By now, she is not a stranger to them, she did not touch them or make eye contact and the dog growled at the instucter. This is a 7 month old puppy in a nuetral situation. What do you guys think? I really don't think a dog should feel threatened in that situation.
The ofa fair hips really doesn't interest me quite as much as whatever a dog's production record is. If the dog had no progeny x-rayed, it would concern me more. Same for the blue and the coat. While I would not breed FOR these things, they have no affect on temperment and health which are paramount for me. And I would not breed to a blue or a coat of course, but if one popped up in a litter it would not be the end of the world.

Karmen is absolutely right in her comment about Brawnson. I usually just lurk and read, but wanted to respond a bit about Brawnson. I've heard so many "stories" about him that if I didn't have a long and personal history with him, I'd certainly be confused. Most of what I read is from people that "heard" this or that, or have seen "a pup". I've been one of Brawnson's helpers, working with Mike in Western Indiana SchH. and Police Club for 6 or 7 years. I've been on the business end of his grip in both the sleeve and bite suit and bruised by the muzzlework. While I don't know the history of all, or even most of Brawnson's offspring, I have worked a lot of them, and seen even more.

As for Brawnson, he is absolutely intense in all phases of the work. His grips are the hardest of any GSD I've ever had on the sleeve. He wants to fight for real, but is at the same time very clear. This is the result of Mike's training and handling, and of the dogs character. I've been around him on and off the field and I've not seen behavior I'd term inappropriate for a police K-9. I've sat down with Mike and Brawnson before and after training and Brawnson has always been fine. I've seen him in private and public situations with groups of people...same there. Brawnson is affectionate to Mike...he's not supposed to be everybody's lap dog. Brawnson is pretty much aloof with people unless they are the "bad guy". He is a dog that will not tolerate bad or unfair handling, but will give 150% with good training and handling, as Mike has demonstrated so well.

Brawnson's progeny show the variations I'd expect from the different females he's been bred to. A lot of nice pups with normal to high drives and fine temperments, a few that approach the extremes on both ends of the spectrum. I don't know what the hip production has been, but I'd be surprised with any dog bred alot if there weren't some cases with poor hips. I have also seen a lot that have been good hips. As far as producing himself, I wouldn't expect another Brawnson. IMO he's a once in a lifetime dog...yet a number of them are definitely "made in his mold". One very large problem I've seen with people that have been critical of his pups is the fact that the pups haven't been given the time to mature. They've been pushed too hard and too fast. They haven't been properly socialized...etc. People are impatient and want a 1 or 2 year old dog to show the maturity and ability of a 4 or 5 year old dog. It doesn't work with Brawnson's pups, or most others.

If I seem biased here, I probably am...because I've had the fun and privilege (and bruises and aches) to work this dog and see him develop into what he is. I've worked a lot of German Shepherds, but none more impressive and suited to their role.

Jeff Lawless

Very well said Jeff. Mike Deihl is the main reason Brawnson turned out so nice, and nobody gives him any credit. Heck, they even beat Bernhard Flinks and Itor at the WPO championship. And that's, like you said, a result of the handling. And some of Brawnson's offspring that are handled by Mike are also what people would think were the best pups, but it's really just the handling.

Mike, I don't know how well you know Mike D. and Brawnson, and I totally agree that Mike has done a tremendous job handling and training him, but to say " "it's really just the handling" " is just ridiculous. The qualities that Brawnson brought to the table--tremendous drives, fight intensity to the max, and nerves of steel--have been focused by the training and handling Mike has done to bring what was only potential into reality. Without those qualities that are part of Brawnson, training and handling cannot create a dog like this. Mike is an excellent trainer and a fine handler and a good friend of mine, but you can't put the qualities Brawnson has into a dog if they aren't there naturally. I guess what I'm saying is yes, Mike is the reason Brawnson turned out so nice...and Brawnson is the reason Mike could get the results he did.

Jeff

I gotta throw this in, cuz Mike - your comment that it's all in the handling is way off. I was sitting with Jack Schurmann and Frans Slaman at the '99 North American when Brawnson went in the stadium. We had watched a lot of dogs by then. As soon as Brawnson left the field, they both got up and headed out to the parking lot to meet the dog and talk to Mike, see the pedigree, etc. I asked them why this dog? They both said that we americans often fail to recognize what's in this type of dog that is lacking in the others - the real power and fight that comes from a truly strong temperament. They said this is the type of dog that would get a ton of breedings in Europe, and that if we were in Europe right now, Mike Diehl would be surrounded with people just like them, wanting to learn about this dog, to study his pedigree, etc.

That is intresting Lee. I have purchased and seen several dogs from Franz and he has a good eye for good dog. In the States alot of times if there is a good dog,it gets ran down, or alot of folks find something wrong with a great dog, and harp on it, real or imagined.

 Quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Lawless:
Mike, I don't know how well you know Mike D. and Brawnson, and I totally agree that Mike has done a tremendous job handling and training him, but to say " "it's really just the handling" " is just ridiculous. The qualities that Brawnson brought to the table--tremendous drives, fight intensity to the max, and nerves of steel--have been focused by the training and handling Mike has done to bring what was only potential into reality. Without those qualities that are part of Brawnson, training and handling cannot create a dog like this. Mike is an excellent trainer and a fine handler and a good friend of mine, but you can't put the qualities Brawnson has into a dog if they aren't there naturally. I guess what I'm saying is yes, Mike is the reason Brawnson turned out so nice...and Brawnson is the reason Mike could get the results he did.

Jeff

AMEN Jeff!!!
You beat me to it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
btw, thanks for speaking up.

That is true of any handler/dog situation. I'm very sure that Mike D would do much better with my Brawnson son than I could. I'm also pretty sure I couldn't handle Brawnson near as good as he could. But...

The entire "tone" of your posts have been to downplay Brawnson and say it's all because of Mike D, which is a load.

Mike, when I compliment the handler, that doesn't mean I'm downplaying the dog at the same time. Nevermind the dog, I'm talking about the handler. I don't care how good the dog's genetics are, the handling is the make or break.

And about the dog, I simply stated facts, both positive and negative(or however you look at them), just as others have. Both need to be realized, as that was part of the original question. But the blue-coats I've never heard of being produced in his pups.

Originally posted by Mike Sanchez:
Nevermind the dog, I'm talking about the handler. I don't care how good the dog's genetics are, the handling is the make or break. And what you have yet to realize is that without a dog of that caliber, all the great handling in the world will not make a great dog. Without Brawnson being the caliber of dog he is, Mike wouldn't have been able to get the results he did. So you have to take the dog's genetics and what the dog actually is into account, to not do so and say it's all because the handler was so good is just plain moronic.