Thanks.I guess if I get a pet quality dog the best I can hope for is a psychological deterrent based on the dogs size/looks but don't count on him or her to protect me I'm not sure I agree with this. Yes, by owning a GSD, many people are not going to mess with you. But this is a GSD we are talking about. I think if you were threatened a good dog would protect you. But first you have to find that good dog. Buy from a breeder you can trust. Test the puppy before you buy it. I have to agree with VC on male dogs. They can be trying, but if you want a male, if you are a dominant person, and you are willing to put in the work, by all means get one. They make great dogs. But they have to know who is boss. You have to show them more then most bitches. You will be getting this dog as a puppy. Your cats should be safe if raised with the pup. Siamese are tough cats to begin with, they don't useally take much crap off any dog. teach your children how to handle the pup while it is still a pup. if they have been raised around horses, they should pick this up quickly. get the dog you really want, you will be happier. If breeding is in the future (and it may not be, finding a good dog that should be bred is not easy)then you want the bloodlines there. Since you already have experience with horses, you should do fine. A horse background is really helpful ( I know mine has been). you already now how to assert yourself over a 1200 lb animal. It's all in the mind of the animal. good socialization and training is essential. As stated, you might want to stay away from some of the Czech lines. nice tough dogs, but maybe more then you need. I see no reason why you can't have a good working line dog that is your pet.

I need to make this clear to all-I have always boarded horses do not have a farm/ranch of my own and have no clue how to train a horse or dog or anything else for that matter-just being honest.That is why it appears a working line dog appears to be ouit of the question for me and certainly not a male as I can't get my cats to mind me much less naything else!(tongue in cheek) LOL <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Take a look at the puppy selection test on this website:
Volhards . At first, the kind of dog you were describing is one that is rated 1's and 2's, which(described by your wishes) is what everyone is steering you away from. A dog that tests in the 3's may better suit you.

This doesn't mean you will have bad breeding or a non protective dog, just a dog with a temperment suited to your lifestyle and won't be 'testing' you.

Usually just the presence of a dog is protection enough. And to defend the females, they may be big mushes with their owners, but don't mess with them! My old GSD who never had any protection training in her life (and at 9 years old) chased a guy who followed me home from work. He walked in my house, with not so nice intentions and was met by my girl who chased him down the street and got a bite in his bum for his efforts. Suprised me! This was a dog that loved hanging out on the dive boat with people and always accepted any friends into the home.

Most people that have PP trained dogs are in situations where they are more prone to receive unwanted attentions from certain individuals.

So don't give up, just keep doing your research!

It really sounds like a 'catch 22" situation! You do not feel that you can get a puppy to raise and train which would be the best thing both for the cat/home situation and price <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ; an older trained dog may come with issues on the cats, and a trained dog is usually going to be much pricier than a puppy; often an older dog can be available more reasonably with some obedience, but it is available because it comes with health problems like hips or it did not measure up to the potential the original buyer thought it should have. As with horses, foals with good parentage and potential are very expensive, trained horses who are winning or show high promise are expensive, and horses who have not met expectations are very reasonable. It is the same in dogs.

I would suggest contacting the schutzhund clubs in your area, often someone is looking to move into a new competition dog and may be looking to place an older dog into a good home. I know of several titled well bred older dogs who have been placed at minimal or even no cost this way. While you will probably NOT get the bloodlines you admire, you can look at it as a learning experience and may even find that you can like other bloodlines by actually meeting dogs from those lines. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

well fortunately I am not in a hurry as I can not even move until beginning of November and then getting settled in etc it will still be a while until I can get any dog <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Most people that want a "Personal Protection" dog really do not need one. Let's face it: a large dog of ANY breed that is trained with a "Watch" command and will fire off on command will scare off 99% of the bad guys out there. For the remaining 1%, a dog isn't going to deter them, no matter what it's trained to do. It may slow them down, but evetually you're going to need a more serious option, in terms of use of force.

Raising, training and handling a dog that is trained in protection work, be it for family, Schutzhund or Police work requires a LOT of time, effort and consistency to not only be effective, but controllable as well. Most people simply will not put in the time or effort necessary to be successful. And in the end, the type of dog needed for this work will pay the price, one way or another.

My suggestion (if all you want is a well trained GSD out of good lines that will be a good family dog/companion and will deter someone from making you a victim) would be to get a less serious dog out of working lines OR get a show line dog from a titled pedigree, then train the dog in basic obedience train it to bark at someone on command. Any other type of dog will be WAY too much for what you want, IMO.

 Quote:

Originally posted by Scott Zettelmeyer:
Most people that want a "Personal Protection" dog really do not need one.

I wanted to respond to the above quote and make a comment about another posting as well. When a statement is made that most people do not need a PPD you have to be careful. While on the surface that sounds like a reasonable well thought out comment, there is more to that than meets the eye. I don't live in a big city, I live in a very rural area in the U.P. of Michigan. An area with very little crime. You might say I don't "need" a PPD and 99.9% of the time or greater that comment is absolutely right. I have carried a firearm on and off for 20+ years and I have only "needed it" once in that 20 years, but I'm damn glad I had it when I needed it because having it, and having the training that carrying a firearm requires saved my life. I didn't think I would need it that day when I put it on in the morning, but I had to be ready at any time. The chances are I will never need it again for the rest of my life and belive me that's just fine with me! I don't ever want to have to do that again. In the same way with my PPD, I don't ever really think I will need her full training. She is a companion first of all, she will alert on command like you intimated and that is enough to warn the vast majority of potential aggressors away, but if she ever needs to bite she is capable and ready to do so if it should ever escallate to that point. I also consider her as a less than lethal option that hopefully will keep me from having to ever use a firearm again.

On the subject of male vs female.... On day I was walking my bitch and we walked by the house that has an untrained male gsd (american) who weighs at least 110 lbs. My bitch is about 80lbs and as I was walking her by his house she smelled out his stash of dinner rolls under the pine tree out front that his owners gave his as treats from time to time. She went under the tree and he growled at her. I called her back and he turned to nip at her. She turned around and latched on to his shoulder and brought him to the ground and he has at least 30lbs on her. They were not fighting, it was simply a territory and rank issue. He is a nice dog and they play together well for the most part but she will not be pushed around. If I was a police officer I would want a very rank male but for a companion/ppd I like having the female as she will stay on my property if she if off lead and not wander like the males tend to do. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I am a police officer and yes, I carry on/off duty religiously. You're absolutely right. Never know when you may need it.

However, I have spent hundreds, if not thousands of hours training to carry that firearm for the very moment I might need it. Just as I have spent thousands of hours training my K-9 partner over the last nine years. And that's gonna cover my butt criminally AND civilly if I ever get jammed up.

Fact is, most people that need or want a personal protection dog simply will not put in the time/effort necesary (especially with the type of dog necessary to do this type of work sucessfully) to have a dog that is bulletproof in its obedience and bitework. And that will prove to be a MAJOR liability should the SHTF. Just like someone carrying a firearm for protection without proper and consistent training.

If a person is willing to put in the time/effort to do it right, by all means they should get/train the best PPD they can. If not, a large dog that goes "BARK!" on command should do just fine. Because, as I mentioned previously, for the 1% of BG's that aren't detered by that type of dog, you don't need a PPD. You need a gun.

Scott;

Absolutely agree with what you wrote in response. There are people who just want a big, bad dog and are a danger to themselves and others. I remember that incident a few years back in California of a female who couldn't control her dog and that dog killed a neighbor before she could get in her apartment door. Thats just as irresponsible as leaving a loaded firearm where a child can get to it. If someone is not willing to train and work the dog then by all means the dog should not be trained to bite.

After I had got my dog from the breeder (already had the basic ppd training by a professional trainer) I had her in the local store here (on lead) that my friends owned. A MSP k-9 officer came in to get a soda from a cooler. My bitch started walking up behind him and he saw her out of the corner of her eye and began to turn around. She alerted with full hackles and open mouth display. I pulled her back and took her out of the store and the only thing running through my mind is if she ever bites someone and I go to court I can just imagine the smorgasbord the prosecutor would have in telling the jury I had a trained "killer". The trooper came outside and I outed her and she went up to him and licked him. He said the problem he has was his dog was that the dog didn't want to let go of the bite once he had the perp. Maybe a little lawsuit opportunity their too?? I should mention that the time I needed my firearm wasn't in the city making a late nite bank deposit but out in the boonies camping with my RV on a private lake. Two guys with a shotgun thought I would be an easy mark. I always thought that once I got out of the military that the only problem I would run into out in the woods was a bear that wanted my garbage....wrong. I'm glad I had the weapon and the training to be calm under pressure and I'm glad I have the dog and hope I will never need her in that department. Take care and be safe. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />