REINER Geel,

what I am saying is this:

the average person is an idiot, with regards to dogs. period... we can discuss this, but nothing anyone says to me will convince me otherwise..

as for an average person handling/owning a PP dog.. I liken a PP dog to a pistol.. Do I trust the average person with carrying a loaded pistol around? um... NO...

having said that, am I a gun control activist? NO I am quite Pro-gun... as am I Pro-Dog... I just cringe at the thought of an average person handling either.

it has ZERO to do with whether a PP dog is well behaved or not, it has everything to do with the dog/gun's capabilities, and my percieved lack of confidence in the average person's mental/physical capabilities

thoughts?

-Matt

AS far as what my 2 week boot camp was...

The dog would be left at my kennel by the owner. We would put the work in for

Sit, down, stay, come, walk w/o pulling, no barking, no biting, and no jumping. The dogs were worked 5 times a day 5-10 minutes each time. By up to 3 different people. When the owner picked up the dog, they were with us for an hour. Sent home with a booklet(written by me) and they came back a week later for a 1/2 hour follow-up.

I know the term boot camp conjurs up some images...we used that as a marketing ploy.

Tod,your comment on the Rottie is so true,I currently have three that have come from homes were the owners were scared of them and they played on it.Once they learn that you are not going to be messed with they become very sweet dogs but not for the average pet owner.
Paul

Got some bad news for you guys. There are alot of average people that own rotties and even more that own guns. Sooooo, I guess you guys better get you a bullet proof bite suit to wear when you go out in public!! Considering there are about 75,000 Rotties registered each year, I would say alot of average people own them...lol

However, this thread isn't about a specific breed. This is about most people and the general public. Most people don't need or actually want a dog that bites. They want one that deters. Or, a good sound alert dog. With the way the laws are nowadays it is too much liability.

When I first moved here there was a law of once and done. You bit once, you were put down, no exceptions. It was even to the point if someone broke into your house and the dog bit them, the dog was put down for biting a human. We have since changed things!!!

Like I said before, if we are talking a specific person, sure you can find someone who can handle a pp dog. If we are talking generalities and a large population base...no the GP has no business with a PP dog.

(There are alot of average people that own rotties)

Sure there are but a lot end up in rescue having been in the wrong home.

Paul

I think this has turned in to 2 different conversations. One is about the level of training that people that are involved in Protection Training expect for their dogs, and the other is about what the general public expects (accepts) for their pets.

My experience is that most people that are involvolved in protection training are more interested in the training. The act of doing the training is more important than where the dog ends up. The ideal end point for most of them is a dog that is a good family pet, integrated in to the family, and still able to function as a protector. Most of them never get there and that is ok with them, the dog is still a pet. The ideal is a dog that will bite, out, watch, and call off on command. Some may even decide to try a hand at trialing in a protection sport or SchH.

Then you have the people that are interested in taking a short cut. They want the same thing they just don't want to expend the effort. They go out and buy a trained dog. Most of them get screwed. They get a dog that is poorly trained, no acceptable orientation to the dog, and no follow up or instruction of how to maintain the training. A few get lucky and get a reputable trainer that provides them with what they want/need.

Then there is the "pet crowd". Many are responsible and at least get some basic training done. They have an acceptable pet. Most just don't get it. They either throw the dog in the back yard because they can't/won't do the work involved. That may work out a bit depending on the breed they choose. Many don't work out and end up in the pound or rescue. Many get taken by "trainers" that either play to their vanity, or feed them a line take the money and run. Most are in denial of the problems they have created, and the poor animals suffer.

Well Richard, I would like to agree with you on this round –(Strange hay)-, well we have seen how personal experience sway peoples thinking and perception on the topic, I for one do not think my dog is as potent as a gun, because I have shot some ass holes and dropped them, some thing my dog would not be able to do, but my dog can do the rest of the jobs, the apprehension, the detection, the alert, the safe guarding and the companion bit – where my gun remains silent in my hand.

Todd, training a dog with out the handler has been shown to have very little success, you and the dog have to grow in to it, nothing personal, but what you do in a week or two- is like capping a mountain with snow, it will melt away and return to it’s original state in the same time it took to train if the trainer is not around to re-in force it.

But then again it’s only my personal opinion and I am not pointing fingers, I am sure you do what works for you and you have many happy customers, but this seems impossible to do, yes the dog will comply short term, but not long term, we call it “Karate” training here –as a kid after watching a movie with Bruce lee, all the children would come out and kick and beat the sH.. out of every thing, and when they wake up the next morning its over and forgotten, it’s short term, but maybe you have the magic to make it stick long term and work for the new owner.

But on the same par, I have to support your argument to some extent, I have had some guy’s and woman at my school that were able to spend top money on buying a fully trained PP dog from some one els, and now need’s it turned down –LOL- yes in any equation with Public, you get the ass hole factor, if I can own it, then I can bye it – I have cured a lot of them of their vanity and stupidity – owning a pp come’s with responsibility and continued commitment, by letting them receive some crunch time in the suite – works great

Debbie- it sounds like you know your gun’s from your dogs from your average public- lol

Todd, training a dog with out the handler has been shown to have very little success, you and the dog have to grow in to it, nothing personal, but what you do in a week or two- is like capping a mountain with snow, it will melt away and return to it’s original state in the same time it took to train if the trainer is not around to re-in force it.
I will be sure and let the owners whose dogs went through it 5 years ago and have since reffered many people to me know that it doesn't work.

Also, so when someone imports a dog that is already titled...which means trained...are you saying they have to start all over since the original trainer is not around to re-enforce?

Commander Geel - Todds program is not that much different then most Protection training programs, I'm sure he doesn't need me to vouche for him.

But what he is talking about is the inital training package, for a owner that wants the trainer to train the dog. Now there are usually 2-3 inital packages one with the handler present another for a dog futher along and that one. The PP usually comes in begining , intermediate and advance programs pending the dogs development and as Richard stated how far the owner wants to take the training.

Its explained that these commands and action should be brushed upon every so often. When I stay away for long, I get as many calls from my PPT much as I do from my student loan officer wanting me to upgrade my package.

It's understood that this is a life time venture if you want to keep the dog sharp.

I agree that the average person doesn't know beans about protection dogs. I can't tell you the mucho guys that have told me that they'd beat my dog down because of the he way acts.

They want to play the stare down game and thump the patio door, and he charges them hits the patio door barking. I'm in the kitchen come back and their armed crossed and cock eyed.

Stupid asses even after being warned, they say he gonna bite you and then you'll have to put him down. I usually tell them, if you do that again I'll put you down, or you gonna pay for that patio door. Stupid, Stupid JQP, Germany Shepherds are weak dogs they have heard???

Or the ones that are just plain afraid of him, no barking just that he seems big, powerful. What about control he's at a sit, and their fi-fe the toy ever is chewing on my ankle.

Or the Crock hunters that I say No don't stick your hand in the car, and they tell later thats a dangerous animal you might have a problem with him. No my problem is you, you can't hear?

I don't know if this hick city USA but like Todd said, they just don't get it. Unless you are in uniform they don't understand anything but hunting and herding for a dog. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />