Doyle, Look at it like this. There are many different faces of the American Quarter Horse. If you wanted a Cutting horse, you would not be best suited to look to Western Pleasure lines. Dogs are much the same. Yep, they are all still quarter horses, but not all can do everything well. The dog you have probably is capable of doing schutzhund. No one said it couldn't. Will it be the easiest dog to train for it. Well, that will remain to be seen. Now, could it do police work or solid personal protection? I am betting a solid no.

If this is the German Shepherd that suits your needs then fine, the problem lies where breeders claim their dogs are what they are not. As I pointed out before, not all quarter horses can run the 1/4 mile.

Caniche, I really don't understand where it is "ok" water down the wine to accomodate people who want but cant handle. That would be like breeding Poodles that were hairless for the people who don't like to brush their dog. Wouldn't you be offended if they came off calling THAT a poodle? Not to mention, ugly.

These same "watered down" dogs are the ones you will find in the pound for the most part. I visit shelters EVERY WEEK, and rarely see any that could "work" the majority of pet owners can't handle a DOG. The reason these dogs can't work, spooky, shy, nervey, timid dogs. Guess where they came from. People breeding PETS. Instead of breeding pets, why not steer these people to a breed that may suit them better.

You need a low dander house alarm. Get a mini Schnauzer. It will bark just as much as a Giant, and truth be known, is a whole lot more likely to bite than any of the show Giants out there.
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Just some interesting statistics. For every human born there are 45 cats and 15 dogs. 3000 puppies and kittens are born each hour. Every one and a half seconds a cat or dog is euthanized.

Trying to buy a quality dog for an intended purpose is NO PIECE OF CAKE! Tell me about it. I consider myself, in hindsight, quite fortunate that circumstances have NOT permitted me to purchase a dog. In the interim, I've had to content myself with research...thank God.

I empathize with the spirit of your situation. But, this is ...well....quite a non-sequitor

In my humble judgment, the responsibility is YOURS, the breeder. If you want your dogs to retain their original purpose, then don't sell to someone who is inadequately informed - perhaps have a standard test for them! I fail to see how a standardized test will inform anybody of anything (which appears to be your concern), nor how SELLING a dog has any bearing on the breeding of said dog. It's already been done. The burden of education is still on you...unless you expect all breeders to provide free prep classes as officially sanctioned by the federal gov't of the United States of America. Imagine that...the DMV of dog breeding!

If you want a cut&dry designation of hoops through which a dog buyer must officially jump, I don't think you're gonna find that. From what I've hitherto gather, if you show an amount of prequisite knowledge indicating genuine interest in the dog's welfare, and function; and assuming it IS appropriate, an understanding of the *logistics* involved in the training/husbandry (locating a local trainer, visiting clubs etc), then I can't imagine having too much trouble getting a good dog from a good breeder. And then, of course, allowing the one with experience to choose an appopriate dog FOR you.

Does this sound reasonable?

....of course YOU still need to know enough to determine what a "good breeder" means. That's on you. I really don't see any other way, short of intrusive measures by a governing body which, inevitably, isnt capable of legislating intent anyway.

Deanna, isn't a quarter horse who can't cut cattle a watered down version of what the original quarter horse was bred to be? People like the horse, people buy the horse. I don't think it's either right or wrong, it's simply a product of our modern society, where animals have slipped from being strictly there for the work.

It would be an ideal world if all breeders operated using sound principles of breeding, were honest and ethical with potential buyers, had stricter guidelines for puppy ownership, and set an example by keeping their breeding stock active in some kind of sport.

It would also be an ideal world if all potential puppy buyers of pure bred dogs were well informed about their chosen breed, were honest and ethical about their plans for the dog, provided proof of spay/neuter for pets, obedience training, etc., and also participated in some sort of dog sport.

It is not an ideal world out there however and there are no easy answers. My uncle has a GSD bitch from a well known working kennel they got for free because the previous owners couldn't handle this pup at 6 months. Did they inform the breeder? Probably not. But why did the breeder sell the dog to the original owner who had 3 children under 7, was pregnant and had just broken her leg? Not that my uncle is the greatest owner either. They live on 4 unfenced acres and the dog spends most of her time chained or in her fenced run. This dog (now 5) is very rank and aggressive, she listens to only 2 people, barely. She almost killed another dog last week because it was walking down the laneway.

Poor breeder ethics coupled with poor handling and ownership (X2).

Actually, the "test" was said tongue in cheek.

The purpose of my post was not intended to be "poor me". Rather, I was attempting to respond to earlier comments about how pet owners
(I've extended that to "buyers") are messing up the intended purpose of the breed.

I remain of the opinion that those who believe this and are breeders can not fault the buying public - but rather must assume the responsibility themselves by screening their buyers. I'm responsible for the decisions I make, but I'm not responsible to the breeder's desire to keep the orginal intent of their dogs if (s)he does not tell me what it is so that I can consider that in my decision.

I saw very little of this in my research - although as I learn more I see that my research was lacking in some areas.

Doyle

Gwen, I hate to rain on your parade, but the UK GSD is not known as a strong working dog, neither are they among the more capable working dogs in the world. There might be a few breeders, but you guys don't have any bite sports for breederst to take part in?? How do they evaluate their dogs?? Numerous police guys from the UK have stated openly on this board that the domestic GSD prospects in the UK are garbage. The police import their dogs just like they do here in the US.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think I'm wrong.

Honestly folks - as much as I adore my Dobie I really can't belive that people make this much fuss over dogs. They are DOGS and definately not worth arguing over...at least not when you realize that life's pretty short and there are a lot more important things to think about. The show people disagree with the working dog people and they both disagree with the pet people - and the saga continues. Such is life...you can't change someone by arguing with them so why even try. Have fun ya'll!

Is it me or does anyone else feel like the info on this thread isn't flowing correctly?
Pauline, you have new puppy - great, good luck with training, but I think it is sad that you just view your pet dobie as "just a dog." First of all not to get all touchy and feely and not even going to the "a living breathing creature thing." I can tell you this, a dog is not just a dog. I've been in law enforcement for over 10 years and in the USMC for 10 years. On more occasions than I would like to admit to - I have had the pleasure of coming back home because I had a dog save my life - literally speaking. Not some BS animal planet story (breed all about it)like I lost my keys and spot found then in the yard for me. I am talking stories of people who are on drugs who are armed with weapons, etc. What about the SAR dogs that worked at ground zero during the aftermath of 9/11. Dogs are a tool, a utilitarian tool that where bred to perform a certain job. If the dog can't perform even the basics of that job, what is the use in having it - none other than companionship. If you ever have been out in the rain for 10 hours looking for a lost 5 year old and the child is found (you being the parent of a lost child, a volunteer, a K9 handler or just a citizen trying to help) you will never say again a dog is just a dog. People make a big fuss, because they are passionate. People with less experience come here because they want to learn and learning about anything new requires hard work and the hardest thing of all, to listen to other people. I am no expert by far and I haven't been there or did that, but I know when not to stir the pot. I think it is ironic to come to a working dog board, ask questions about work v. show (generalized) and then try to refute the comments of some of the people on the board. Enough said.
Doyle, congrats on your new puppy. Your dog is from German Show lines - you said you did some research, read books, etc - great. If your primary reason for getting your puppy was to do sport (SCH/IPO, etc) it might be better in the future to discuss background with someone who trains and competes in sport. All show breeders will tell you that a dog from WGR show lines can do shutzhund. I even made the mistake of getting a puppy like that as my first K9 prospect, I guess we all get taken at one time or another. Also I hope you find a good club to join and train with, as a novice even with tapes and reading books and articles, it is going to be almost impossible to get the foundation down correctly without first hand guidance. Good luck and keep us posted.
Train Smart,
Brandon

Forgot something, Pauline I hope I didn't step on your or anyone elses toes. I was just trying to bring some other ideas to the table. When talking about dogs and our likes and dislikes we all tend to get a bit "passionate" and things could very easily get misconstrued. Read some of the articles on this board in the Q&A section about raising dogs and dogs with nerve and fear problems. I bet when your puppy is about 12-16 weeks old you are going to get a surprise from your little puppy that you aren't going to like. Then you will be asking questions about how to deal with a nervy or puppy with dominance issues.
Regards,
Brandon

I understand that dogs are an amazing resource in many areas and also add so much to our lives with their undying love. I am not saying they are not important and anyone who knows me could tell you that my dog is my baby. People make fun of me. I am a true animal lover and take the best care of my babies. What I don't understand is why people make such a fuss and argue and complain etc. Hey- obviously I came in here without a clue...I just know that there is no dog in the world that could hold a candle to the precious human relationships in my life. A dog will last what....7-15 yrs?? My kids (God willing) will be here my whole life and I will give to them and they will give to me much more than any dog ever could. God knows that I love them - I'm crazy about my dobie - he's spoiled rotten. I just have a problem with them being given a human status and to argue and debate over them is beyond what I can understand. I'm thankful for their assistance, protection, and rescuing ability and I really do respect your preservation of the working breeds. What I don't have respect for is the arguing, debating and bickering that goes on between dog people. I can't post a message anywhere without getting slammed. I just think they need to be kept in their place. People show more respect to dogs than they do to humans and I think it's sad. You know - one day we're gonna die (cold hard fact) and none of the junk we argue about is going to be all that important then. Just a thought

Pauline