Mike,
I didn't address your initial question/statement in my previous post.
I don't know why ASR isn't more popular. Like you said, it's new and not going to be an overnight success. Also, it looks/seems to be a 'one man show' so-to-speak. I'm sure he has help, but until he's able to build a wide-base of support, I'm sure it'll be slow going.

I agree with you 100% that a more demanding performance test for our breeding dogs will, over time, generate more quality working dogs.
ASR seems to be a good eval/test/trial, especially for LE dogs/handlers. Participating in ASR with a patrol dog is probably more in-line with what that dog does day-to-day than SchH. Is ASR protection more difficult than SchH protection, I don't know, I've never seen ASR. To me it's just different, and probably more 'practical' for PSDs.
IMO, Belgian Ring (NVBK) has the most demanding protection phase of any of the sports. It is completely non-standardized, the dog and handler can face any sort of distractions and opposition, limited only be the judges imagination. I don't believe the dogs do a biulding type search, but are required to work on various surfaces.

Building searches are often difficult and the training for them should be accordingly, but an FH2 track or a 6 hr old suspects track is also difficult, just in a different way. My point is, for many police depts and other agencies long tracks/trails are equally practical and/or important as building searches.

Mike,
How exactly do you think this is a better test of dogs than Sch or French Ring? From the website you provided, I don't see how the bitework will show anything else about the dogs character that would not be seen in either Sch or FR.

The other excercies don't seem to test any other traits that are not covered by Sch or FR. It does sound like a wonderfull way for the people involved to make money with less effort in training, but will not add any benefit to breeders programs with the goal of making better working dogs.

Does it sound like it might be a fun activity to do, yes. Does it sound like a better test for breeding evaluation, no.

Also the question of legitimacy in bite training is not about recognizing titles, it is about perception of liability. It seems to me that the people who would be attracted to only competing in this sport are the types of people that make it more difficult for the rest of us with bite trained dogs.

Chad, I'm not familiar with everything involved in French Ring so I won't comment on that. The reason I say ASR is truer test is because it involves realism. We all know Schutzhund isn't realistic, for the protection phase is more like a rough game of tug of war. There's no initial threat on the handler or the dog; the dog is not protecting anybody from anything. It's more like a show. The dogs are 100% sleeve sure during a trial, with 100% of their focus on the sleeve. During the long pursuit of the helper, he's not the least bit threatening. He's actually setting a target for the dog, which is not what a criminal would do unless he's mental. That's no test of character.

ASR, on the other hand, involves real attacks on the handler and dog with the decoy wearing civilian clothing. During the muzzle bites, the decoy wears a bitesuit only to prevent an accidental slip of the muzzle, not to promote prey drive. At one point, the decoy throws a bucket of water on the dog, or sprays him with the water hose, yelling loudly at him during the attack. The majority of the protection phase is done so with strong, intimidating confrontation. Here, the decoy's job is not to make the dog look good by giving him a good bite, but to push the dog to his limits. The dogs must show strong defense in all scenarios, which Schutzhund dogs are not required to do at all. In fact, Schutzhund dogs lose points if they show aggression which is completely the opposite of protection.

I'm not here to knock schutzhund, like I said before, but facts are facts. The sport doesn't test defense drive, which is a very important character trait of the working dog, and one that is becoming harder and harder to find. If defense was included in schutzhund, you would see more than just sleeve bites. My point is, a realistic test like ASR is a more accurate evaluation of defense, nerve, courage, and character. These traits are being bred out of the dogs today, at a slow but steady pace. A more demanding test would reverse this. I'm for the REAL working dog.

The other excercies don't seem to test any other traits that are not covered by Sch or FR. It does sound like a wonderfull way for the people involved to make money with less effort in training, but will not add any benefit to breeders programs with the goal of making better working dogs.
Chad, that is SAD you'de say that because ARS don't lack any thing less than what I could want my line of pups too do for work.some my want more in tracking, bite grip or just obiedance.I don't know, but that's Cold.

but will not add any benefit to breeders programs with the goal of making better working dogs .


And for some odd strange reason sch.. does.Thanks mike for being more clear about AMERICN STREET RING. That is some thing i'm not always good at. There was one simple thing besides all the good stuff in these exercise of realisim that made me Choose ASR. IT WAS, DO I WANT MY DOG TO CONER A MAN IN A WARE HOUSE & BARK WHILE HE AIMS HIS PISTAL THAT HE WAS ALREADY HOLDING.AND BLOW OUT HIS BRAIN THEN ME.AND WOULD HE HANLE POTECTING ME IF NOT CONDITION FOR IT OR ANY OTHER SURPRISE THAT I MIGHT NOT GET OUT OF SCH..No we can't prepare for real life. But I sure wanna work in these type of Games with my boy. Well I'm for any training to better the dogs. So keep up the FR,MR,ASR,SCH & ECT,
John & richard you made some good interesting points.I will say, When I was introduced too American street ring I read about it & though that this was worthless.After being deeply involved with the Network.these exercises I became a lover of.As for the FAITH OF AMERICAN STREET RING WHO KNOWS???.I hope many of you gett more involved. Or just find ASR more enjoyable than you found any other Training process.For this is a fine network to be a part of. Ulysee

Originally posted by Mike Sanchez:
The dogs are 100% sleeve sure during a trial, with 100% of their focus on the sleeve.....If defense was included in schutzhund, you would see more than just sleeve bites. Neither of these statements are true, period. Mike, this is why no one is buying what you're selling. Defense and fight driven aggression and bites have nothing to do with the sleeve or the suit. Dogs can bite a suit out of prey as easily as they can a sleeve. Also, I've worked and seen plenty of SchH dogs that are far from 100% sleeve sure. When I do muzzle work with the Police dogs I've worked with I wore a military field coat and long pants, I'd also wear boots to help protect my feet. Civil muzzle work is the best way to eval fight drive.

BTW, SchH used to use a suit in the old days, they moved away from it b/c people felt the dogs were focusing too much on the equipment. The Europeans have gone through these things decades before dogsport had any sort of hold here in the US.

To breeders, dogsport is a tool and tools only work well if used properly by experienced people.
ASR seems like a reaaly good venue, but you're not going to convince anyone of that by telling them how much better it is than x, y, and z and putting down x, y,and z in the process.
I see where your coming from with a lot of this, just keep an open mind and do what best suits you and your dog. Train hard.

John, it is true. When's the last time you saw a leg bite at a schutzhund trial? When's the last time you saw a body bite at a schutzhund trial? Never(atleast I hope not), because the dogs are working solely in prey drive, and are sleeve sure "during" the trial. Of coarse anybody can pressure defense on a sleeve sure dog away from the field if they want to, that's easy. It doesn't take much effort to switch a dog into defense. But you won't see it at a Schutzhund trial. That's my point.

I understand the suit is also used as a prey item for a lot of sports. But in ASR, the bitework is done in defense so it's sole purpose is to prevent injury to the decoy, not to stimulate prey drive. The bitesuit here actually has a purpose. And remember, the decoy also works in civilian clothing through some of the routine with the dog on-leash wearing a muzzle.

The bitesuit is very misleading, people tend to compare the use of the suit in ASR to that of KNPV or FR where it's used as a prey target. And I'm not knocking Schutzhund, I participate in it as well. But facts are facts; there is no defense stimulated by the helper in a schutzhund trial. I wish that were different, but it's not.

I'm not just for ASR, I'm a fan of all realistic dog training, of all phases and all types.

Hi folks.
I was really trying to stay out of this, but I feel I have to clear the air just a bit.

American Street Ring is NOT better or worse than any other dog activity. It does, however have a different goal. The basic premise is as a PROVING GROUND for Police-type dogs.

The scenarios are basic, the obedience is basic. All of which are designed to test the character of the dog involved.

There are building searches, and woods searches as mentioned above. All muzzle work is civil (no bite suit), and there are some civil exercises with hidden sleeves and civil agitation with no equipment (dog is restrained, we're not crazy).
It is a small community for a reason.

Almost all of the folks care about is getting out and testing their dogs and having fun. Check the ego and the BS at the gate.

I've not seen PSA as yet, so I cannot speak intelligently as to the differences, but it seems like a solid program. ASR is kept small for a reason. Control! You don't see a lot of arguing at a trial, or griping about the 'subjectiveness' of the evaluations. Everything is on paper. You know going in where you will lose points, where you won't. You know where you or your dog screwed up when it happens, no surprises on the scorecard.

A sport? Sure it is. If it's got points and trophies, it's a sport, folks!!

Our group trains for, and trials in American Street Ring, but we do other things as well.

I, myself, am on the Board of Directors for NARA (French Ring), played with Sch years ago (anyone remember NASA?), and train with working K9's whenever asked to do so.

I'm a trial decoy for the program, and my training partner is the only other Evaluator besides the founder of the program.

ASR just another venue with which to have a good time with your dog and your friends. Isn't that what this is all about?

I can GUARANTEE that no one is making money off of ASR. It's not non-profit, as alluded to earlier, it's operated at a loss. Most folks join the day of the trial, which barely (and not always) offsets the cost of trophies, field rental....etc....

Happy and SAFE Training,
Scott

Thanks Scott for explaining it better. Where in the U.S. is ASR most active?

yes,scott thank you.. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />Who said the navy would show up on time.LOL