I don't know......I don't see that hyena thing here......

Josh makes the comment that he asks questions if he needs help,this is from a proven expert not a person that thinks he is.
If you dont know take a tip from Josh and ask but dont try to discredit people who make their living training dogs and have done for many years,that way you learn nothing and everyone gets upset and the list suffers.
Nobody knows it all,so learn instead of fighting.

I've been reading this board for quite a while and am struck by the vehemence of some of the personal attacks - especially at those who are thought to be affiliated with the Dogmen. If you haven't been to the facility or had one of the trained dogs then how can you make those judgements? If you have been there, actually seen the training and the dogs and then think the dogs are poorly trained, then and only then you have the basis for forming an opinion. 30 years training or not.

Yes, I have one of the dogs trained there. I am not uninformed nor am I a fool or stupid. I did not go into this lightly and looked at many dogs and different training. So far I haven't been disappointed at all with my dog, just the opposite. He's not broken down, unreliable or dangerous - many people comment on how well behaved and calm he is. I don't tell anyone he's protection trained and it never occurs to anyone. Just the way I like it. But if there's a threat, he jumps right into action.

I'm not trying to promote anything, merely saying I have a great dog.

I'm here because I'm interested in all types of training and have learned more than a few things. I hope to continue to.

Rosep,

The issue is less the Dogmen and more the individuals methods of putting out the information. There are some serious issues with some of the things said. Several of the people involved attacked several well respected trainers based on information from that web site. Several of the things said were inconsistant, and could be dangerous to the temperament of the dog. When confronted on the statments they resorted to name calling and/or stated that is not how they train. That will get many peoples dander up.

I am glad you have a good dog. I am sure that properly trained dog with similar methods is possible. I have used very similar techniques and had exellent dogs. The idea of stressing pupies in to a fight or flight status is dangerous for the dogs temperament. One person finally admitted that is not what he was advocating. That type of training was delayed until the dog was over a year old. That is much different than pushing an 8 week old puppy in defense. They kept saying that they never use prey behavior, and then say they do, they just call it something different.

A free exchange of ideas is a good thing. It goes on here all the time. Several different opinions on many subjects are expressed. Politely and rerspectfuly with multiple points of view discussed. The discussions don't become heated. It is possible and desireable to have a free exchange of ideas without getting nasty. This is a group that will freely respond in kind when they feel assaulted, that is part of the reason we do what we do.

Originally posted by rosep:
<<<Yes, I have one of the dogs trained there. I am not uninformed nor am I a fool or stupid. I did not go into this lightly and looked at many dogs and different training. So far I haven't been disappointed at all with my dog, just the opposite. He's not broken down, unreliable or dangerous - many people comment on how well behaved and calm he is. I don't tell anyone he's protection trained and it never occurs to anyone. Just the way I like it. But if there's a threat, he jumps right into action. >>


Gee, if all of this is true, then how come you were over in the *Puppy Training* section asking for help in how to tell if your dog has weak nerves?

Two points.

1) Funny that Dogmen people are anti-sport. Maybe because you need a title to back up your dog. It's easy to say you have a great PPD. Says who, you?

2) All of these new dogmen spokesmen have under 10 posts. Could it be one or two people acting like a group? Hold on let me log on as someone else and agree with myself..

Thank you Richard. I understand.

Joy,

I don't know what you meant to copy in your post but I was not asking about a dog of mine, I was asking about a friend's dog who was pigeonholed as having weak nerves early on, some of it having to do with raising hackles if unsure of something. Now the dog is confident in all types of new situations. Early on the dog exhibited other signs of being weak nerved but you'd never know it now. The question was intended to be more of nature vs. nurture and what can or can't be overcome. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Vince,

I'm not anti-sport if you're happy and your dog is happy. If you want to title your dog go for it. I just am not so inclined. I probably couldn't do it anyway...

I do admit my opinion of my dog is not wholly objective but I can honestly say he hasn't disappointed me in any way and I have high expecations. Other people can also attest that at the least he is a good dog. Of equal importance (if not more) he is a great companion.

Originally posted by rosep:
If you have been there, actually seen the training and the dogs and then think the dogs are poorly trained, then and only then you have the basis for forming an opinion. 30 years training or not.

The people that were saying they have many many years of experience HAD tried that way and found it didn't work. They infomed the list they have washed out many dogs training in defense only and through many years of training and experience found the best way to train a dog with confidence and stablity was starting them through prey.

Oh, rosep was asking *for a friend*. Now I understand perfectly.
Intially, I would have encouraged all of the experienced folks here to just ignore this nonsense, but the ones who keep slugging away do have a point. The world of PPT, as well as any sport that inlcudes bitework are in a precarious position these days. So, I'm starting to realize that they keep on this b/c they are ethical, responsible and experienced dog trainers who really don't care if the dogmen operative(s) are here or not, but do care that novices lurking about may take what they say as vallid, ethical training and ruin an innocent dog in the process as well as further turning the public against all forms of protection training.

Vince,

I didn't see your second point. I'm not a Dogmen spokesman but I do have one of their dogs. I am one person, not a group and don't understand the automatic animosity. I use what works for me which changes as I get more experience.

Karmen,

My point was that I don't think the description of the training in posts you've read here really tell the whole story. You'd have to go see it and see the dogs. You'll get no argument from me that this can quickly ruin a pup forever. None at all.