Mike or Anyone

However, there are pups in a litter that just aren't breeding quality .......

1) How can u tell when u only have the pups 7 or 8 weeks that they don't have the breeding qualities????

in that case, they also have to sign a spay/neuter contract

2) Can you really stop someone from breeding these unqualified pups??? If they dont what is the charges or fines for doing this if any at all??? I know that contracts are broken and promises aren't kept everyday in the world.

It's a responsibility thing...responsibility to the breed to see that only the superior dogs are allowed to be bred to continue on with how the breed is supposed to be and not allow people to flood the market with dogs that do not live up to the standard. Those dogs are effectively culled from the gene pool and are not sold as potential breeding stock.

3) Is this something that the breeder did, breeding two dogs that didnt live up to the standard so he/she is putting a restriction on the pups????

and my last question

4) Why couldnt the restricted dog have pups that would have a superior dogs in it????
Since the genitic traits are the same in both dogs (superior pup vs restricted pup) or does the the restricted bad quality pup have all the bad gene's that were breed by the two dogs and the superior dog carries all the good genes???

hope these arent dumb questions.. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> ...just trying to learn... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mike, excellent post. I will back up what you said by saying that I also sell ALL of my puppies on limited registrations. Top working-prospects, novice working-prospects, pets. And, I require a bit more to reverse the limited to "full" - a Schh1 title or equivalent, as well as OFA adult passing hip rating. Why do I do this -
1. everything Mike already said. When working puppies are sold for working, the owners don't care if the registration is limited, because they do plan on training and titling the pup. When the dog is titled, registration is changed to full, and voila the dog is now breeding quality and can be bred. If the hips don't pass, of course the dog shouldn't be bred anyway so limited registration doesn't matter.
2. Limited registration does not restrict anything except breeding, and showing in conformation. My dogs are not bred for showing in conformation, and so that is a mute point. And they shouldn't be bred without some sort of proof of breedworthiness - hence the Schh1 title requirement. I don't know of any other test of breedworthiness that is comparable to the working GSD, though I do allow "real" working certifications such as Police and SAR to also accept full registration - along with adult OFA of course. Most people who buy a working dog want just that - a working dog. They work it, and then when it's titled, then they might decide to breed it. It is usually not the other way around - buying a pup with the intention of breeding - well that pup wouldn't be coming from my kennel anyway.
3. Why in the heck would I put years of training, thousands of dollars and miles and hours, trialing them under different judges on strange fields and training in the cold, rain, wind and snow to get multiple working titles on my dogs, conformation ratings and breed surveys, only to sell a pup that could be bred without any of the above, with the same bloodlines, and all the work of my breeding program attached to that dog? I don't think so.
4. And as Lee said - trusting the puppy buyer is a really good thought. But, if you breed these dogs for any time at all, you will quickly learn to not trust. I have sold pups on full registrations and I've been very, very sorry. And I've sold pups and, as Lee said - got a bad feeling about it, was right, and then very, very glad that pup had limited registration. And the pups with Eichenluft's name who are on full registration now - have earned it, by proving they are breedworthy like their parents were, maybe better than their parents - which is what it's all about to me - improving the breed and protecting the integrity of the breed, and the quality breeding program.

Molly, I certainly can understand wanting to "protect" your hard work. But,I look at it from another angle, if the dog is good and can add quality to the gene pool, making it difficult to add(or reinforce) that dog's genes in the gene pool is not in the best interests of the breed.

David,
does the the restricted bad quality pup have all the bad gene's that were breed by the two dogs and the superior dog carries all the good genes???

To answer that question all you have to do is rent the movie TWINS starring Arnold Schwartzanegger and Danny Devito.

1) How can u tell when u only have the pups 7 or 8 weeks that they don't have the breeding qualities????

It's called experience evaluating pups and their drives/temperaments. With experience, you can get a pretty good idea of which ones will do well and which ones won't. Listening to "the consumer" (I hate using that term) and working with them, understanding what they need, how they evaluate it, etc goes a long way towards being able to recognize what may be valuable in various venues.

2) Can you really stop someone from breeding these unqualified pups??? If they dont what is the charges or fines for doing this if any at all??? I know that contracts are broken and promises aren't kept everyday in the world.

Yes, it's called the pup must be spayed/neutered with proof given or the paperwork does not get sent and the dog gets reclaimed. Contracts maybe be broken, promises may not be kept...however NOT by me, whether it is a promise for something good or a promise of something bad, I always keep my promises...and trust me, you don't want me showing up pissed off at your door to reclaim a pup.

3) Is this something that the breeder did, breeding two dogs that didnt live up to the standard so he/she is putting a restriction on the pups????

Even the best two dogs in the world when put together can produce marginal or less than marginal offspring. That's the wonder of genetics and breeding. Recognizing those that are not "up to par" and restricting their ability to reproduce is the responsibility of those that care for the breed as a whole. Even dogs that show great promise and are good workers might be eliminated from a breeding program for a number of reasons. If the breeder did their homework, made a good decision, and the breeding didn't turn out as expected, then that breeder (if they're worth their salt) should swallow their pride and admit their mistake...ie all pups on spay/neuter, not repeat the breeding, etc.

4) Why couldnt the restricted dog have pups that would have a superior dogs in it????

It is far more likely that two "inferior" quality dogs are bred that they will produce more "inferior" quality dogs. Let me put it this way, just using one expression as an example...in the same litter there are only 2 males, the pedigree is phenominal, one is very confident, the other is fearful. Would you breed to the fearful male in hopes that his pedigree would overcome his own issues?

And for VanCamp:
I have allowed dogs to go out to those I trust and know personally with an unlimited registration. However, that number so far is THREE, four pups total. One being Dennis Akins (stud owner for our first litter), another being Mike Diehl (stud owner for our second litter), the last is Carmen Duggan (our good friend and one of my mentors in the breed, two pups went to her).

1. How do you tell? You can get a feel for the temperaments of the pups from selection testing and you can pick out serious health issues. You can usually tell if a pup is going to totally suck, but honestly everything else is a guess.

2. Can you stop someone from breeding? No, but you can stop them from being able to register the litter with AKC. . .so the pups would be mutts and could not be registered.

3. No, it isn't something the breeder did by breeding poor dogs, even in the best litters ever bred there will be better pups than others. To keep breeding the best dogs you eliminate the dogs that are not the best from each litter from the gene pool.

4. Pups in the same litter will have different genes, one pup might have a genetic edge over his littermates. They are not identical twins.

Jennie, Just to make you aware.There are people that purchase titled dogs just for the intent of breeding and selling pups..with no consideration as to what they are actually producing.For you the consumer..It is your "Job" to investigate.If the breeder is reluctant to provide you with answers to your questions..in your pursuit of investigation...Then "Cull"...that breeder.

Van Camp, I know the term limited registration applies only to AKC dogs..within that..you have to consider that there are those that want to protect...and follow up on what they are creating in progression of genes...for a purpose.

Thanks guys.. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> .i get the picture..i hope it will help others also....i am starting to see the light and learning alot that other wise would probably have cost me thousands of dollars to learn or would of had to learn from the trial and error method...and i hate to do it either one...

thanks once again for answering my questions

Molly's post makes a lot of sense; I guess I haven't really seen it from a breeder's perspective. If I were a breeder who had worked so hard to develop a reputation and had dogs worthy of breeding, I guess after all that work I wouldn't want somebody else to just be able to buy a pup, wait a few years, and breed it using all of my work and doing none of their own, that wouldn't be fair. And I guess in a way it doesn't matter unless it was my goal to breed the pup some day. Though, there's also the point somebody made about how people sort of fall of the face of the earth. And I still think that even if I never breed the dog, even if I had the dog spayed (no possibility of pups there) I would still want my full registration once the dog had her hips cleared and was titled because to me the limited registration just seems to say at the very least 'we don't know yet if this dog is good enough that there should be more like it' and once my dog has proven herself I want it switched, meaning (in my mind anyway) this is a great dog, the breeder is proud of the way it turned out and more dogs like this would be a good thing (even if there weren't going to be any puppies) basically, a stamp of approval saying 'hey this is a great dog.' Maybe it really doesn't makes sense to anybody, and in practical terms probably doesn't matter. Guess that's my .01 (not even .02...) Thanks everybody for the discussion on this, it is very interesting. Jennie