Ahmed, I think the focus here is on behave (obedience). Sure they emotional bond with you and love you but only as their litter mate. They see you as equal to them and they treat you that way. They don't accept easy orders from their peer. They need a leader; otherwise they will get confused and don't 'behave' like you think. Dogs don't think like human and don't expect that they are obedient just because you love them and you feed them. If there is no leadership they always look for their advantage. They love to have a strong leader where they can look up to.


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Should I understand from this statement, that you believe that dogs have no emotional bonding with owners? And will not show it?

Sir DavidStevenson,

Sir, honestly, do you think you will need toys and etc. just to motivate him if the bonding between you and your dog is rock solid?

What makes you think that this such intelligent creature, who almost possess human like intelligence, view you as one of its kind? Don't you even consider that the dog knows his role better than his handler in this partnership?

I'm going to chime in here and say this. Would you work your job garnering only praise from your boss and NO paycheck? Or would you prefer the boss telling you nothing, only giving you a paycheck? How about praise where praise is due, corrections as necessary, and a paycheck for a job well done?

It's not so hard to think that most dogs need some incentive, be it toys, playtime, food, etc. Very few animals will work for praise and praise alone.

 Quote:

Ahmed, I think the focus here is on behave (obedience). Sure they emotional bond with you and love you but only as their litter mate. They see you as equal to them and they treat you that way. They don't accept easy orders from their peer. They need a leader; otherwise they will get confused and don't 'behave' like you think. Dogs don't think like human and don't expect that they are obedient just because you love them and you feed them. If there is no leadership they always look for their advantage. They love to have a strong leader where they can look up to.

Thanks Dave

Makes alot of sense now!

Cheers

Now who gets the idea that dogs can "love" or "hate"? or "good" and "bad"? These are dog, not people. They know safe vs. dangerous, leader vs. not leader, pack member vs. not pack member. A bitch may have a passionate bond with her pups, yet will kill them over a dish of food - is this love? or leader?

Now back to topic (sorta)

I see 3 types of dogs that are handler motivated.
1. The 1 one in 100,000 dog that "worships" it's handler.
2. The dog that has been feared into submission, but can be carefully monitored by a responsive handler to maintain a positive state of mind (I have one of these - and it's not a good place for a dog to be)
3. The dog that has been trained with praise (no treats, prey object), coupled with controlled and judicial correction. The key here is that the dog has been taught through TTouch, pressure point massage, calming holds and replicating noise that dogs make to communicate to each other that are below the threshold of human hearing to associate with a positive state of mind. The dog is not associating the praise word or marker with the handler's approval, but by it's association to and memory of the pleasuable stimulus and the pleasing stimulus of the "dog noises". Yup - you guessed it - this is my basic approach. I forget to bring hotdogs, but my dog rarely forgets to bring her ears. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

By that is all beside the point that the original post refered to a training problem that was/is not so much a training/motivation problem as a management/GW problem.

My 2 cents <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

very few animals indeed work for praise alone and dogs are one of them.
Praise them sincerely for a job well done, and give corrections fairly meaning not because your angry, frustrated, or anything else but to just guide them.

If you need to resort to other things to motivate them, admit that there is something wrong and work it. My friend ALways tells us "The greatest obstacle you and your dog will ever face is You."

What makes you think that this such intelligent creature, who almost possess human like intelligence, view you as one of its kind? Don't you even consider that the dog knows his role better than his handler in this partnership?


I couldn't agree with you more. I honestly believe that any and all dogs know more about what they are doing than you. Don't let them tell you any different, Tinkerbell does exist.

I used to use "calming holds" on one of my Rotts to cut his nails. This amazing technique was called "sitting on the head". Only experts should use this, however, this one time only offer can be yours...but wait! there's more! if you order now we will send you free our touch from God wrapped in cellophane. CALMING HOLDS????? Replicated dog noises?????????AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

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If you need to resort to other things to motivate them, admit that there is something wrong and work it. My friend ALways tells us "The greatest obstacle you and your dog will ever face is You."

The statement assumes you are not working with a "damaged" or rescue dog. If I'm working with a dog with phobias it's going to take a lot more than praise (even as I describe the preperation) If I'm workng with a dominant dog, I rely on equipment and foresight, not praise. If it is easier to use treats, I use treats.

In training dogs, you also must be flexible and humble enough to acknowlede that the "tried and true" is not working and have the knowledge of behavior, body language, drive, and pack to understand the effect of each motivation, piece of equipment, trick and technique.

Since your dog is adolescent, in training, and seems to be 'wise' to the long line, maybe you could try a lighter type line that wouldn't have as much 'drag' feel to it. Trick him into thinking you are 'omnipotent'.
or use an ecollar (and long line to guide him) in his recall.
Good luck~!