There's a very good example of this in one of Ed's helper videos. I don't remember which one. It was in the "bad presentation" segment and the helper was showing what can go wrong. The Pit in the video only did one back flip though.

Will, do you have any video clips of Chris and Atos? I wouldn't mind seeing him get tossed around a little. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Sorry Chris!

Dont know if this is true or not. A member of a UK board I am on stated that this dog lost two teeth in this incident. May be one reason why he lost his grip. He left his grippers in the sleeve. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

IMO the "Helper" and dog were both at fault here. The Helper Bailed out alittle which caused him to be at the angle you see him in on the video. Yes the dog was coming hard but that is what you train for as a helper. Mals are hard to judge on the courage test because they don't "tell you" which way they are going (left or right) they just fly 100mph straight at you and it is your job to take them were you want them. This helper was taken the to the right and dropped back about a half a second to soon. It is told you all helpers by the judge that it is the dogs job to get the grip and the helpers job to set the grip. I didn't see what Will saw in the Helper dropping the sleeve but I don't have a 35 year SchH eye like he does. I think it was a poor catch or lack there of but luckly for the dog and the dogs owner his drive pulled him thru it and he bounced back. If you train in dog sports this is gonna happen. No one or dog is perfect. So to be mad at the helper is wasted energy. It happens in all sports.

what do you mean

 Quote:

It is your job to take them were you want them.

David,
Matt is using helper speak there. What he's saying is that it is the decoy's choice on how to safely bleed off the kinetic energy that the dog has and to place the dog into the "pocket" to safely drive the dog once it has gripped the sleeve.

I think the decoy did excellent work, but the dog didn't tighten the grip hard enough, fast enough. I would find it hard to imagine it was a tooth loss that made him slip, as he reenters confidently afterwards. If you look at the dog logo on the top of this board, the dog's rear is way high in the air. If THAT dog had let go, he would have spun. It's momentum and vector issue, and it's very frequent to see dogs' rears WAAY up in the air when they hit sleeves hard.

Lucky for the owner and SPECIALLY for the dog, that he did TWO complete BACK FLIPS!!!!!! and landed reasonably softly.

The video shows a Malinois that's going way too fast for any practical purpose. It is very easy to make a dog like that miss altogether.

If you are a decoy then you need to spin the dog...instead of just taking a direct hit?????
....well maybe spin isnt the word i am looking for...but it sure did look to me that the decoy spun around 270 degree's....and i bet that was one hurting dog...or at least sore for a couple of days

David,
if a decoy just took a "direct hit" instead of going and blending with the flow of the dogs impact ( a decoy that takes a direct hit with no "give" is called a "wall", and they're not popular with handlers, believe me ), most dogs would soon display repetitive trauma from those impacts. And broken teeth and cervical injuries would become the norm, and it'd be the end of the sport of SchH.

Good helper work on the long bite catch is a lot like the martial art of Aikido in which you do not contest your opponents power but instead blend and flow with the attack and redirect your opponent.
Here's a good link that explains Aikido:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aikido

Of much more imortance than the actual contact of the helper and the dog is the picture presented by the helper to the dog.
The dog must believe that the helper is commited to attacking. The dog does not and should not receive an attack from a protected decoy in a choreographed affair, but should believe that it will.
Then the judge of the event looks at the committment of the dog through their body language and their grip to determine if the dog is showing the level of courage hardness and fighting instinct necessary and assigning the dog a score for the excersise.
Unfortuantly, we have often seen rabbits for decoys that present a prey picture to the dog and make wildly exciting catches. A test of strict athleticism for the dog and decoy, but not such a complete test of courage, hardness and fighting instinct as a more correct decoy the embodies an inherant threat in their course down the field at the dog. Combining this threat with a proper catch...which means getting the dogs feet back on the ground quickly!!! and driving the dog to press the dogs temperment for the judge to see may not be always as exciting but will seperate the old fashioned 10 point dogs from the 9 point dogs.
Will uses an analogy of aikido. I'll continue this. In sparring in modern martial arts competition one comes accross many types of competitors, some are fun and present no picture that worries you as an opponant. You know in your heart that they may win the sparring event but are incapable of hurting you. Others scare the crap out of you and even when you outscore them you know that they would be a serious opponant if push came to shove.
It is the later impression that the dog should have against the decoy. You will see when that type of environment is established that the very best dogs shine and many that look very fine in training show the holes in their character.
If a dog slips off a sleeve under that type of decoy it is usually due to a lack of committment. If a dog slips off the athletic only rabbit, it means nothing except that the judge will have to score it the way it occured. Too bad for the dog and handler as they may have been done a disservice.
The trend for many years now in America has been to use the athletic non-scary type of decoy. It looks good. But, when friends from abroad see this they wonder why such decoys were chosen. Sometimes that is all we have. Sometimes those that can present the more correct decoy aura are just too damned old to hold up to 60 or 70 dogs in a weekend. We in this country have a lack of numbers throughout our sport for decoys, competitors, and dogs. just the way it is.