Re: "Snake School"?
[Re: Lou Castle ]
#85681 - 10/01/2005 10:25 PM |
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Just cause you teach a dog to avoid a snake doesn't mean they will let the murderer get away. Nice rationalization. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> Look at the end of my last post. What does it say? How about the dog ignores the snake, goes after the murderer because the bite is the stongest reinforcer. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />
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Re: "Snake School"?
[Re: jeff oehlsen ]
#85682 - 10/02/2005 04:12 AM |
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P.S. Do you think dogs generalize?
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Re: "Snake School"?
[Re: jeff oehlsen ]
#85683 - 10/02/2005 08:45 AM |
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Just cause you teach a dog to avoid a snake doesn't mean they will let the murderer get away. Nice rationalization.
I missed the rationalization in my post. Can you point it out please? When a dog goes in for a kill, and BTW I've never seen or heard of this happening when snakeproofing is done with a handler and an Ecollar by someone who knows what he's doing, you just press the button again. The handler guides the dog away from the snake and he learns that the only thing that shuts off the stim is moving away. What you describe might happen with lesser aversives, something other than an Ecollar set on a high level.
The problems with letting a bull snake bite the dogs on the nose to teach them to steer clear of snakes are several. One is that the dog has been injured. Even though there's no poison there is a chance for infection. Another is that the dog knows that it has to approach the snake to get bitten. Ecollar training "lets the snake bite the dog" from a good distance off, so the dogs learn to stay a "good distance" away from them. Another is with the snake biting the dog there's an opportunity for instant revenge, as you report. The dogs learn that they can kill the snake. They can also kill a rattlesnake but by then, most likely, they will have been bitten several times. If the snake loads them up with venom, especially because he's shifted from a "get away from me" mode into a "survival mode" there's little chance for the dog to survive. Better he stays a good distance away.
Look at the end of my last post. What does it say?
It says that maybe I'm right. But then your most recent post says something else entirely.
How about the dog ignores the snake, goes after the murderer because the bite is the stongest reinforcer. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />
This has been discussed above. If the punisher is strong enough, and based on your reported results, a bite from the snake isn't, the dog won't go back in for the kill. If he does, the leash prevents him from getting close enough and the Ecollar teaches him that it's not worth it.
Lou Castle has been kicked off this board. He is an OLD SCHOOL DOG TRAINER with little to offer. |
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Re: "Snake School"?
[Re: jeff oehlsen ]
#85684 - 10/02/2005 08:48 AM |
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P.S. Do you think dogs generalize?
It seems obvious from my descriptions of dogs avoiding garden hoses, rope on the ground and the edges of shadows that some dogs do.
Lou Castle has been kicked off this board. He is an OLD SCHOOL DOG TRAINER with little to offer. |
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Re: "Snake School"?
[Re: Lou Castle ]
#85685 - 10/02/2005 10:12 AM |
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Lou,
You (and others) have mentioned the earliest age to start being about 6 months, depending on the dog. I assume this will work for older dogs as well (3, 4, 5 + years)?
A little off subject, but I've been reading more and more about using an E-collar as you describe for other training as opposed to using it just to "polish" the dog up. Can your E-collar methods also work with older, experienced and already titled sport dogs/certfied PSD's? Or does their previous training experiences make it difficult to transfer?
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Re: "Snake School"?
[Re: Scott Zettelmeyer ]
#85686 - 10/02/2005 10:55 AM |
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You (and others) have mentioned the earliest age to start being about 6 months, depending on the dog. I assume this will work for older dogs as well (3, 4, 5 + years)?
Yes, it will.
A little off subject, but I've been reading more and more about using an E-collar as you describe for other training as opposed to using it just to "polish" the dog up. Can your E-collar methods also work with older, experienced and already titled sport dogs/certfied PSD's? Or does their previous training experiences make it difficult to transfer?
Actually the fact that they've been previously trained makes the Ecollar transition go much faster than with a "green dog," one who knows nothing. I introduce the Ecollar the same for an experienced dog as I do for one who's green. Both of them need to know how to shut off the stim. The experienced dog already knows the commands so it goes a bit faster. And since he's been titled/ certified, he's worked in the face of distractions and that makes the proofing go faster too.
Lou Castle has been kicked off this board. He is an OLD SCHOOL DOG TRAINER with little to offer. |
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Re: "Snake School"?
[Re: Lou Castle ]
#85687 - 10/02/2005 05:19 PM |
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So out of all the dogs that we taught without the e-collar, they all got infected and none of them left snakes alone. We aren't talking 12 dogs here, we are talking close to 200 over the years, not including all the other people who do it this way. Yeah, the way I was taught some of the dogs got bit. We never lost one to snake bite either.
Now I don't know how often that you go in areas that have snakes, but we did an awful lot. copperheads, and timber rattlers, and water moccasins. We taught the dogs with a bull snake and it worked. Kill dogs are nut cases to begin with. they are willing to climb up the trees after coon and jump out when the coons do. They also are the dogs that go after the coon in the water and have a really good chance of drowning when the coons get on their heads and hold them under. Kill dogs don't always make it to old age, but they really live hard while they are alive. Never lost one to a snake bite.
I guess what I should of said is that if I have a patrol dog that is so focused on snakes that he will stop what he is doing and go after them instead of the bad guy I would probably dump the dog as worthless. I wouldn't want to risk my person for a dog that is facinated with snakes.
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Re: "Snake School"?
[Re: jeff oehlsen ]
#85688 - 10/02/2005 07:37 PM |
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So out of all the dogs that we taught without the e-collar, they all got infected and none of them left snakes alone.
Do you mean that none got infected and they all left snakes alone? Or is this sarcasm?
Yeah, the way I was taught some of the dogs got bit.
I've never heard of a dog who was properly trained with an Ecollar being bitten. It's probably happened though. But I'd say the chances are far less.
Earlier you said that you like snakes yet you said that some of the dogs kill them during your training. Doesn't sound too humane to me. It looks as if we've both decided that dogs are more valuable than snakes; but I haven't arranged for the killing of any of them for the sake of training.
We never lost one to snake bite either.
Whether a dog dies from a snake bite depends on many factors. Where the bite lands, how much venom is injected, the type of snake, the health of the dog, how long it takes before medical treatment is given and more. Sometimes it's a matter of luck. But even if death does not occur the dog is often subjected to high levels of pain, amputation and stress.
Now I don't know how often that you go in areas that have snakes, but we did an awful lot. copperheads, and timber rattlers, and water moccasins.
Just about everywhere in So Cal has poisonous snakes. The most common is the Western Diamondback, probably one of the most aggressive of the poisonous snakes in the US. Copperheads don't exist here, but they're famous for not biting even when riled up. No Cottonmouths either but we have the Mojave Green variant of the rattlesnake which has an especially nasty, two-part venom, that is both a neurotoxin and a musculotoxin.
We taught the dogs with a bull snake and it worked.
You just told us that " some of the dogs got bit." I wouldn't call that success.
Kill dogs don't always make it to old age, but they really live hard while they are alive. Never lost one to a snake bite.
I notice that you didn't say that they'd never been bitten, only that you'd "never lost one to a snake bite."
I guess what I should of said is that if I have a patrol dog that is so focused on snakes that he will stop what he is doing and go after them instead of the bad guy I would probably dump the dog as worthless. I wouldn't want to risk my person for a dog that is facinated with snakes.
I've never come across any dog, patrol, SAR or pet that was focused on snakes. But dogs sometimes come across snakes during searches and training and it's best if they actively avoid them. But even if I came across such a dog, it's an easy matter to stop that behavior with an Ecollar. There's an article on my site that describes that as well.
Lou Castle has been kicked off this board. He is an OLD SCHOOL DOG TRAINER with little to offer. |
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Re: "Snake School"?
[Re: jeff oehlsen ]
#85689 - 10/02/2005 10:52 PM |
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Jeff, I may have missed something but there are no Water Moccasins in colorado unless that's just a local name for common, non poisoness water snakes.
Lou, I've see probably a half dozen working terriers get bit by copperheads. Although even a 14lb dog can get through a copperheqd bite with nothing more than antibiotics and tetanus shoots, I've know two that had to be retired because of there becomming to obsessed with snakes afterwords. I've seen the same thing happen with dogs that were skunked. Many of the terrier people I know wont use the e-collar on a dog. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />
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Re: "Snake School"?
[Re: Bob Scott ]
#85690 - 10/02/2005 11:17 PM |
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I didn't live in Colorado back then. We hunted all over the place. Funny enough, we never hunted out here.
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