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AAAAAaaaaaaHHHhhhhhhaaa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

TOO FUNNY!!!

You're probably just jealous because you're stuck someplace COLD.

I couldn't let it pass, so the following is my counter to you, Mr. Verbal Samurai VanCamp.

I wrote...

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(Allowances to be made...huge ones...for detector dogs)

So I agree with you for detector dogs ...so...

aaaaaAAAAAAHHHHHhhhhhhaaAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!! back!


and...

you wrote...

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the dogsports where the decoy shoots are rare.

....hhhhHHHHHUUUUUuuuuuuhhhhHHHH??????

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Either way, the goal is to have the dog totally ignore a gunshot.

i would disagree. "totally ignoring" a gunshot sounds like either a dull dog or a dog who is or almost is on the verge of being in avoidance, and avoidance is as much or more of a stress indicator than barking.

i want my dog to be curious, quiet, and alert during gunfire. not ignore it...

you wrote...
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the dogsports where the decoy shoots are rare.


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....hhhhHHHHHUUUUUuuuuuuhhhhHHHH??????





Well, the largest dog sport in the world that involves protection dogs and gun fire is without a doubt SchH - and the gunshots are done during obedience by a non-helper.
So I'd have to say that VanCamp is correct here, the dogsports where the decoy fire the gun are rare, or least in the minority.

Andres stated;

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ALL the snappy obedience you do using a prey item is done (I think?) for demos and certifications. Real world obedience for you is with lights flashing, people all over the place, YOUR adrenaline pumping...typically you would grab your dog's leash a bit tighter and use a more intense tone of voice. Dogs notice this, and for THIS reason I don't like to muddy the waters carrying "prey" items with me when I go train: for adult dogs I would rather use a potential bite as an incentive. It's a different story for youngsters and play items, food, etc.

Nope , I use the prey item in order to build and mantain a solid foundation in obediance (formal and tactical) . I carry a prey item (jute stick ) with me wherever I go . I have plenty of pockets . When doing real world or tactical obediance I often (not always) end that training with a prey item . Once again though , I mix it up and vary the type of rewards and vary it based on the individual dog .

The potential bite or confrontation and driving off of the badguy should be(IMO) and are the primary incentive with the dogs we train . But , if the real world scenerio ends without the dog getting that reward (bite , drive off) then a prey item can many times be a good second option .

I wouldn't call my obediance snappy either . It's very good but it's nowhere near as sharp looking as many of the good sport dog handlers I've seen . I wish it was but with all the other things I have to do (actual reallife K9 deployments , Tactical OB , SWAT , tracking , open area searches , Narcotics detection , evidence search , bite work , etc. , etc. )I just can't find the time for it . Plus my wife and kids would kill me if I spent anymore of my own time with the dog .


Andres stated;

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Jim, for equipment fixation problems I have simply eliminated sleeve work altogether (exception: very occasional use of hidden sleeve), and use only suits...different ones...many times covered up by some other garments. The reward for a good fight is the decoy goes down. No trotting with the sleeve. Admittedly, in this country we are not constrained, as you are.

To fix and avoid equipment fixation I like to mix it up and use the suit , muzzle work , hidden sleeve and civil agitation .

Disagree all you want, but I want my dog ignoring gunshots.

If I'm shooting over the dog, I want his attention elsewhere. If the decoy is shooting at us, I want him fighting the decoy. . .not worried in the slightest about the gunfire.

If my brother is shooting duck on my property, I don't want my dogs to be going apeshat wondering what's going on in the distance. I also don't want them to load like crazy thinking there is a bitework session on the way. Other than a "hey, somebody's shooting" I don't want a reaction out of the dog.

I take the time to try to innure my dogs to gunfire in as many situations as I can. I'm just crazy like that.

One of the requirements that I have for a PPD is that you can shoot over the dog without problems, so we work on it if need be. Frankly, most dogs I've had were totally gunsure, so it wasn't an issue.

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Disagree all you want, but I want my dog ignoring gunshots.

If I'm shooting over the dog, I want his attention elsewhere. If the decoy is shooting at us, I want him fighting the decoy. . .not worried in the slightest about the gunfire.

If my brother is shooting duck on my property, I don't want my dogs to be going apeshat wondering what's going on in the distance. I also don't want them to load like crazy thinking there is a bitework session on the way. Other than a "hey, somebody's shooting" I don't want a reaction out of the dog.

I take the time to try to innure my dogs to gunfire in as many situations as I can. I'm just crazy like that.

One of the requirements that I have for a PPD is that you can shoot over the dog without problems, so we work on it if need be. Frankly, most dogs I've had were totally gunsure, so it wasn't an issue.

thanks for giving me permission to disagree. you keep talking in extremes. the dog who goes apeshat is on one end. the totally dull, afraid, avoidance dog is on the other end. the ideal reaction is in the middle. again, alert, curious, and quiet...

Tim and Jim IMO have the right end of the stick here...right in the middle is the clue.............why train a dog to do one thing or the other. In a real life situation the dog needs to connect to the handlers needs and not start thinking for himself..............I agree with Jim on the prey drive thing...i always have a jute roll too in my pocket............works a treat for me too. A stable dog will look at the handler as what to do.........andres .....do u want a dog that over rules u and thinks for itself? IMO bad choice.

Robert stated;

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Other than "hey somebody's shooting " I don't want a reaction out of the dog.

Tim stated;

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the ideal reaction is in the middle. again, alert, curious, and quiet...

It looks to me like you guys are describing pretty similiar dogs . I think both you guys are reading too much into the others posts. Only difference I see is Tim is willing to have a dog load up a little more than Robert .

I'll work with both of the dogs you guys describe .

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andres .....do u want a dog that over rules u and thinks for itself?

Jeez, Hilary...that's a stretch!! I must tell you that every single dutch person I have ever met has been practical, smart, funny, and tough. I was starting to think that the entire population was that way. Thanks for the reality check. But while on the subject...are you saying you don't want a dog that thinks for itself AT ALL....... WOW!

Regarding gun shots, those of use that go bird hunting (by the way there's excellent teal hunting here right now) are familiar with what we want working dogs to do when they hear gun shots...almost nothing. The retrieve is the important part for a good bird dog. .12 gauges going off all day long are ENVIRONMENT.

Regarding the prey item, I would like to submit the following training exercise ( not a personnel tactics scenario, just the dog and the handler)...

Dog and handler walk into a rural home in El Salvador. There are a bunch of rooms, outhouses, chickens, 55 gal drums, garbage, and easy access to the roof all over the place...to search out a bad guy. Everyone has already been cleared out after the perimieter was set, yet one person is still there. The dog goes in there, finds the guy, the guy surrenders, so there's no bite, the guy is taken into custody by someone else, and the dog gets his prey item for having done everything correctly.

As the dog/handler team walk out of this "home", the handler gets attacked by someone with a knife that "appeared" from one of the previously cleared rooms...while the dog still carries the prey item.

I submit to you that the dog's first valuable seconds will be wasted chomping down HARD on the prey item.

...and if the answer is, "I wait until the dust has settled and I'm out of the building to give the dog his prey item", then I think the prey item is no longer rewarding anything in particular, and therefore is not necessary.

This could easily apply to any building search TRAINING SCENARIO. My strong suggestion is to not take a prey item into a building search ever...and to NEVER give it to the dog until everyones safe and accounted for.

Please remember I'm referring to a training scenario, and I'm not implying that adequate tactics and sufficient personnel can't significantly decrease risks during an exit.