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.....Which brings us full circle with this thread and why I started it. Even after all I've done with my pup to reinforce this behavior, he's still being very aggressive towards other dogs, where do I stand? Just keep going with it until he's matured and then start electric/dominant colar training him to eliminate this behavior?

Have you seen this article and the related DVD?

http://www.leerburg.com/dominac2.htm

I've helped with a few dominant-aggressive dogs, but not enough to give advice about it.

Others here are qualified to give advice on dog-dog aggression.

Ed Frawley states that dominant behavior in male dogs doesn't really start to manifest itself until the dog becomes more mature (18 months or thereabouts). My pup is only 4 months old and has not displayed any of the dominant behavior that Ed discusses in the article. He most certainly displays prey drive, but not dominance.

Kyle, you posted:

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Which brings us full circle with this thread and why I started it. Even after all I've done with my pup to reinforce this behavior, he's still being very aggressive towards other dogs, where do I stand?

and then mention your pup is ONLY 4 months old. I personally have never met a 4 month old baby puppy that is TRULY aggressive. So I find it hard to believe that is what you are seeing. The reason I keep suggesting the socialization is because I think your puppy is 'rude' and maybe a bit of a 'bully' with other puppies and dogs. One of the reasons breeders want puppies to stay with their littermates and mom for 8 weeks is because that allows them to LEARN alot of social behaviors they will need thru out their lives. Mom corrects them for rough housing, as well as the other puppies will yelp when bit too hard.

All this great socialization done early, is benefited by us continuing to monitor and step in when our pups continue to socialize after we get. WE can take the 'mom' role and if my pups start bullying and overwhelming another puppy, guess who steps in and the game stops? That would be me. And not because it's scary mean 'aggression' like Ed is discussing at 18 months old. But because my pups can be a brat and take advantage.

Other thing is I am constantly amazed at how SCARY rough, growly, body thumping, wrestling NORMAL play can be with GSD puppies. It can be too much for other dogs not used to it, but still considered 'play' by my 2 GSD's. I watch and monitor and still step in, but I let them get away with more when they are together, than when they are playing with another puppy. If the other puppy starts looking uncertain and cowers, then the ALWAYS monitored play has me stepping in for a brief time out.

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Kyle, you posted:

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Which brings us full circle with this thread and why I started it. Even after all I've done with my pup to reinforce this behavior, he's still being very aggressive towards other dogs, where do I stand?

and then mention your pup is ONLY 4 months old. I personally have never met a 4 month old baby puppy that is TRULY aggressive.

Well, ultimately I started this thread to address concerns I had with my dog being aggressive towards other dogs we've encountered, even at a distance. The thread sort of gradually migrated towards dog dominance issues.

Ultimately, my original question was sort of aimed at helping me understand why my dog has so much aggression towards all other dogs, when he technically has no reason to. I guess I can just chaulk this up to him being a confident, bully (if you will) and that's that. I was simply afraid that this would manifest itself into him being physically aggressive, or dominant towards other dogs once he matures which could make it more difficult for me in sport and protection training when there are bound to be other dogs around. However, maybe this is just the case with most GSD's and segregation of the dogs is the only real solution?

Kyle,

Try this if you can.

Set up a scenario where when your puppy starts flying off the handle at another dog, hand the leash off to someone, preferably someone you know but who is a relative stranger to your pup. Then you walk away, preferably in a direction where he can see you walking away, but still away from the target of his attention.

The goal of this is to see if his 'dog aggression' is a higher priority than his desire to be with you or see where you're going/what you're doing. If he's just being a jerk-off, then he'll most likely stop flipping out over the other dog and wonder why the hell you're walking away and leaving him behind.

If he really is truly dog-aggressive, IMO there's not much you're going to do to change that; you're just going to have to manage him, period. If he's so over the top dog aggressive that he can't hold it together to do OB with another dog within 25 yds of him, then you'll have some hard decisions to make. Otherwise, I don't see why he couldn't do SchH or something of the like. I've seen some pretty dog-aggressive Pit Bulls, GSDs and Rotts do SchH and protection work with normal precautions taken for any dogs at a SchH club.

JMO, but I think its worth a shot. My wife's GSD was doing similar stuff at your pups age, and it worked for him.

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Kyle,

Try this if you can.

Set up a scenario where when your puppy starts flying off the handle at another dog, hand the leash off to someone, preferably someone you know but who is a relative stranger to your pup. Then you walk away, preferably in a direction where he can see you walking away, but still away from the target of his attention.

That sounds like a good idea, I'll give it a go, see what unfolds. My prediction will be that he is all about where I'm going and totally forgets the other dog. He's very much dedicated to me.

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That sounds like a good idea, I'll give it a go, see what unfolds. My prediction will be that he is all about where I'm going and totally forgets the other dog. He's very much dedicated to me.

Good.
If/When he shifts his attention from the other dog to you, make a big deal out of it, have his favorite toy ready. Let him drag your friend over to you, have him sit & focus briefly on you (2 seconds), Reward - tug with him, etc. This is a good chance to get your foot-in-the-door of getting his focus on you and ignoring most of what is around him.
If it works, repeat it as necessary and get to the point where you see what's coming and can use some OB to bring his focus to you, rather than the other dog.

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That sounds like a good idea, I'll give it a go, see what unfolds. My prediction will be that he is all about where I'm going and totally forgets the other dog. He's very much dedicated to me.

Good.
If/When he shifts his attention from the other dog to you, make a big deal out of it, have his favorite toy ready. Let him drag your friend over to you, have him sit & focus briefly on you (2 seconds), Reward - tug with him, etc. This is a good chance to get your foot-in-the-door of getting his focus on you and ignoring most of what is around him.
If it works, repeat it as necessary and get to the point where you see what's coming and can use some OB to bring his focus to you, rather than the other dog.

I just got off the phone with my breeder, Pia Blackwell. She's telling me that he's just putting on a show or as she said "being a punk". She's pretty certain that he's just trying to make himself out to be tougher than he really is because he's genuinely nervous being a little pup and all. Her thoughts are that if I dropped his lead, he'd immediatly stop and come over to me. My dogs brother from the same litter, "Ace Vom Rheinland", is already doing some basic tracking work at the Schutzhund club down in Plymouth Massachusetts where my breeder lives, and says Ace is displaying the same exact behavior, drop his lead and he changes attitude real quick. She's told me that what I'm doing is correct, that I need to discourage him from this behavior with a firm "Komme" command and if that doesn't work a quick jerk on the lead and if that doesn't work literally pull him away. Ultimately she said if we encounter a dog across the street etc while we're walking try to just not break stride and almost force him to just keep up with me, thereby not giving him much, if any oppurtunity to pay any mind to the dog across the street. She said that I've got to work on eliminating this behavior now because once he matures it could be a problem if he's still doing it, as it could turn to real true aggression.

What she said about him does make a lot of sense. One time I was walking my dog and we came around this corner and a house on the corner had a back yard that was fenced in, you couldn't really see it until you were practically on it. Well, the people that live there have a little baby Rottweiller, probably the same age and size as my dog, maybe a bit smaller. Well we came around this corner and the baby Rott was right there and started barking at us, my dog didn't see her until she was barking, she totally threw him for a loop, he practically paniced and jumped sort of behind me and away from the fence. Once he saw her he sort of growled and barked once then just started walking away real quickly. Now that I look back at it, it all makes sense if you subscribe to my dog's breeder's theory.

This is my dog's breeder, Pia Blackwell. First person to ever win the USA National Universal Championship with a bitch (2004). She's well known and highly respected amongst all the Schutzhund competitors I've befriended. She was born and raised in Germany and has been training Shepherds since her teenage years.



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Pia has done very well.

T Floyd won the Universal title the year before in 2003 with his female Mendy.

Pia won the Universal Seiger Title with a bitch that she raised/trained/titled from her own breeding, that sets her apart from anyone else who has achieved the title with pre-trained purchased or client's dog. Kudos to anyone who achieves the Universal Seiger title, but to do it with a bred raised/trained/titled dog is an awesome accomplishment.

molly