Thanks Amber

That is correct Amber.

Entities like Lackland AFB, RCMP, the defunct Czech Border Patrol etc just happened to lean their wills and resources on a handful of breeds...for some reason. That happened to exclude most breeds...for some reason.

These seem to be rather impersonal facts.

That doesn't denigrate any given dog of any given breed.

 Quote: demetriusdrayton

Hello Rene how are those pups doing maybe you should informed the board that you had a litter whos sire has his Sch2 FH1 or is it FH2.

Hi Demetrius! Puppies are good...they have all discovered toys this weekend...I haven't talked about them because I didn't want to be perceived as "advertising".

But I did just update the puppy cam the other day - it's the 1/26/07 cam - http://www.workingboxer.com/Puppies.html Beth you have GOT to see 'em!

 Quote:

When's the last time the weight of a national government developed a brutal selection process of boxers for working/breeding prospects?

I sorry to say that I don't know what the "weight of a national government" is, but Boxers were used as Military dogs in both World wars.

It's discussed extensively in My Life with Boxers as Phillip Stockmann developed a training program for Boxers during World Wars I & II.

http://www.naiaonline.org/issues/Boxers_Watershed_Sires.html

http://www.americanboxerclub.org/german-boxer.html

And, nothing against the miliary (at ALL) but after reading about what happens to Military dogs - I'll stick to agility...it's just too sad...

The weight of a national government means it's ability to spend huge money and employ lots of people and deal with lots of dogs from lots of places in a systematic centralized fashion.

This happened and continues to happen in multiple venues for the mal and gsd in particular.

Not so much for boxers.

Am I wrong?

Let's revisit the original question:

I just wondering why they get no love...

Perhaps in other words: "Why are they not as popular?"

Is there an answer to this question which will not annoy boxer people? Or was it rhetorical?

 Quote: Steven Lepic

Am I wrong?

I don't think so, I thought your original question was if any government had ever used Boxers in a working capacity.

 Quote:

Is there an answer to this question which will not annoy boxer people? Or was it rhetorical?

I'm not annoyed. I was just trying to answer the question.

As to why there are not popular now, I guess I don't feel they need to be, so I don't know, maybe it was rhetorical. I don't think Schutzhund as a sport is different than any other dog sport - and they all have breeds selected more than others.

Renee, thanks for sharing the puppy cam link! I'm so happy for you with what looks to be a nice litter. When we met late last summer, it sounded like you are planning to keep at least one for SchH work. I hope you will let me know once you make your pick, and keep me posted! And even though we're *so near and yet so far* you are welcome here any time.

My dogs are family companions first, with the additional gift of fun sport work that my husband and I enjoy together during our off time. We didn't choose our breed based on government studies about which breed is best for any particular activity, or which breed has the best nose for tracking, or anything like that. We chose our breed, we got into SchH sport, and we're just happy with the progress our own dogs continue to make. I suspect that is true for many (but certainly not all) dog owners. We enjoy every moment here at training getting to know new people, and breeds we were previously unfamiliar with - i.e. the boxers that you (Renee), Demetrius and Kenneth work. We equally enjoy the Mali's, the working line GSD's and the Hovawart too.

I assume that Leerburg considers boxers a legitimate working breed, since there is a section here for that. I hope some viewers of this thread can see that Demetrius was just trying to answer the questions that were asked about his own dogs (are they titled?) and questions about the muzzles and tracking. I hope that people interested in boxers will consider his experience and committment to the breed, and his progress and success with his dogs, ahead of whether or not he was trying to host his own pity party across a couple of posts on a discussion board.

Steven, I'm still not clear on how government sponsored studies (I think that's what you're saying) about best breeds for certain types of dog work tie into the questions posed in this thread about Boxers - their ability to track in general, and/or earn SchH titles. But - I assume you have some sort of interest in boxers since you have participated in this thread in the boxer section. As you already know, our training field is reasonably close to you. If you would like to come on over and watch some boxers work first hand, just let me know. I assume I have at least a little bit of credibility with you at this point.

Beth

I have no particular interest in Boxers or watching them work.

I have no stake in whether or not any Boxer anywhere is better or worse than any other breed or individual representative thereof.

I have no clue where I mentioned studies.

All I am saying, without prejudice, is that the German Shepherd and Malinois have been represented in working disciplines such as SchH, Police Service and Military, because of the choice of large and influential bodies which have devoted significant resources, over decades, to finding, developing and perpetuating these dogs.

Can the same be said for Boxers?

Who are these large and influential governing bodies? A non-exhaustive list would include, like I already mentioned:

-The early DVG
-The Czech Border Patrol
-The RCMP
-Lackland AFB

Maybe Boxers are actually far superior in every aspect sought after by the GSD and Mal people, and it's pure fear and bigotry which has kept them down. I don't know. I don't care. I'm speaking of history which has molded today's climate of working dogs and the breeds typically associated with them.

Why is the ak-47 associated with Russia? Because it works to at least to a reasonable degree, and most importantly that's what they chose to manufacture (by the millions)! That can be factually stated with very little qualitative judgement about those particular guns. It's just how it turned out. Plain and simple.

Steven, I owe you an apology. You are right - you never mentioned the word "studies." IMO, you implied that sort of thing with your posts about national governments, and what dogs they choose for specific pursposes, etc. I am still trying to figure out what these broad government agency dog recommendations for specific duties have to do with SchH enthusiasts in general, regardless of breed? Are you suggesting that only GSD's and/or Mali's should be trained in SchH?? I'm not trying to be rude - I'm only trying to make sense of what you are suggesting.

What exactly IS the point you are trying to make WRT Boxers and SchH? Since I'm sure we can all agree that working line GSD's are probably the most popular in the sport, and Mali's are surely very popular in the sport (I don't have stats), does that mean that SchH should be off limits to other breeds? Or that owners of other breeds should not try? You didn't say any of those things directly, but I'm really confused about whatever you ARE trying to say.

Since you say this, and I quote you exactly:

"I have no particular interest in Boxers or watching them work."

...Why are you posting anything in a Boxer specific section of a working dog forum?

Respectfully,
Beth

I know these are troubled waters, but can I just jump in and say that I thought that Steven was only trying to answer the original question from the original poster over why Boxers were not as popular for Schutzhund as GSDs and Mals were.

And I thought his response meant that it is probably because GSDs and Mals met BOTH of the following:

1.) They were good at it AND
2.) Because the gov't (and law enforcement) using these dogs for similar pursuits made them well-known for it.

Because people came to associate those kind of dogs for that kind of work, many automatically chose those dogs when they needed a dog for similar work, including Sch work.

As more people got the GSDs and Mals, and more competed with them, the more the image has grown. And those two breeds ARE good at it, but I honestly didn't get that he was saying that no other breed can be good at it.

If the gov't and law enforcement had chosen Boxers as the first kind of dog you thought for these highly public roles (seen in person and on TV) then I'm sure we'd be having the same conversation about why nobody thinks GSDs and Mals "get any love" for Schutzhund work! Why the gov't thought that the GSDs and Mals were the "choice" breed over Boxers I don't know....I don't know enough about Boxers to say.

Maybe the fact that not as many people are aware of the Boxer's talents in this area is why many Boxer owners don't think to compete with them. For example, before I came to this post, I honestly didn't know that they did. No offense, I just had never seen one. I'm not saying they don't, I just didn't know anything about it.

I post this because it seems to me that there is just a misunderstanding that often happens in e-mail form. In person, I think you guys would have cleared this up in 1 minute! Now, I'll officially stay out of it! Just wanted to say how it seemed to an outsider on the subject.

 Quote:

Renee, thanks for sharing the puppy cam link! I'm so happy for you with what looks to be a nice litter. When we met late last summer, it sounded like you are planning to keep at least one for SchH work. I hope you will let me know once you make your pick, and keep me posted! And even though we're *so near and yet so far* you are welcome here any time.

Thanks Beth! I'll keep you udated, I am keeping one, and I'm sure I'll see you this summer, thanks for the offer!!

 Quote:

My dogs are family companions first, with the additional gift of fun sport work that my husband and I enjoy together during our off time.

I feel exactly the same way