Quote: Brad . Martin

I didn't mean anything derogatory, Judy. I was just making a general comment to create a clear picture of one extreme end of a spectrum that's all; it wasn't directed toward you specifically.

I know you meant nothing derogatory. I was only concerned that if people read your post (staaayyy)they might think I was all over the map in training and didn't want to be perceived that way. Not because it would insult. I didn't want to be perceived that way because I want to get the right input when people try to guide me with my questions on the thread.

No problems here Bradley T.

to be quite honest I don't know who the comment was for. After reading all the comments the idea became a general statement. I really was'nt trying to pick you out. I get frustrated. I have been taught that inorder for our dogs to understand what is expected from us we must be consistant in our actions and our deeds. It never makes sense to correct the dog for not obeying one time and not another. The dog does not have the ability like us to understand different scenerios. I have been taught to never let the dog make the choice. he is to wait for my command. Here is an exsample I hope makes sense. A home owner lets the dog get on the couch in august but in septeber gives a correction for getting on the couch because hise feet were wet after a rain storm. The dog does not under stand and it would be wrong to correct the dog. I am sorry if you felt picked on. that was not my intent. Lance

Ok, Lance, I was going to post before but changed my mind. Now I have to...

We do not live in a black and white world. Neither do our dogs. I think you do not give them enough credit for being able to recognize the gray areas in life.

They have instincts that tell them gray areas exist. For example:

Why is it that my dog instinctively understood the smoke in the kitchen was a bad thing? I didn't teach him that. It was the first time he saw smoke. There wasn't even a lot of it. The smoke detector didn't even go off, yet somehow he understood that the smoke could be a problem. He's absolutely correct in his assessment. If left unattended, a fire would ensue.

How do you explain a pet's desire to wag his tail at the mailman but bare his teeth at the burglar? I'm not discussing PP dogs here. I'm discussing pets.

I'm in complete agreement with you about consistency regarding 99% of commands. If the couch is off limits on Monday, it should be off limits every other day of the week. This thread is not about questioning mundane commands. Sit means sit. Off means off.

Stay means stay but what if there is a gray area here? Here is a perfect example of the behavior of a "pet" that I believe causes your argument to come into question:

My 17 year old son's friend comes over all the time and Gunnar LOVES this kid. This friend has a terrible father - just got out of prison, a real scary SOB. My dog has never met the man.

About 3 months ago, I was playing w/Gunnar in my fenced in backyard. This nice kid pulls into my driveway but he was with his father. The father got out of his truck to walk over to my fence. Now here's the interesting part...I never saw any of this. I was oblivious to their presence when Gunnar just up and charged my fence barking aggressively and growling at this man who was approaching. I was shocked because this is NOT my dog. Read a few of my posts and you'll understand just how freakin' friendly Gunnar is. Yet he knew this man was trouble. I couldn't get Gunnar to calm down until the man got back into his truck. I had to shout to the man to get in his truck Gunnar was acting so crazed.

He has never before or after done this with anyone. How did he know? I did not teach him this. He did not react to my feelings about the guy because I didn't even know the guy was approaching me!

Now this man was not a burglar, just a piece of sh*t that wanted to pet Gunnar. A perfect example of a gray area where I would absolutely want my dog to get up from his STAY command. If he sat there in his STAY because I trained him to STAY as if his life depended on it, I assure you I would have ended up with this man standing right next to me in my backyard!! NOT something I would have wanted. I know the fence wouldn't have stopped the creep because he walked right into my house the very first day we met!! He's indescribably creepy and aggressive in a suburban sort of way, if that makes any sense.

I was very proud of Gunnar and would want him to repeat this behavior in a similar incident. I theorize that if I trained him like you - complete consistency under any and all terms, that convict would have been standing right next to me instead of running into his truck.

Judy, I just wanted to say you seem to have an exceptional dog, with fantastic instincts! You are so lucky!

 Quote: edward egan

Judy, I just wanted to say you seem to have an exceptional dog, with fantastic instincts! You are so lucky!

Thanks Ed. The more time that passes from that incident to now, the more I will agree with you.

Since that day, countless men have been to my house (sounds funny but keep your jokes to yourself ).

All different delivery men - they are never the same: UPS, FedEx, DHL. The mailman is always different, we get milk delivered, dry cleaning delivered, we have contractors working on the house, and if that's not enough, I have 3 sons ages 22, 19 and 17. At this age most of these kids are "men" in my dog's eyes and none of their friends or acquantainces or even first-time-to-our-house school buddies have ever evoked this reaction from my dog.

I'm really just now starting to realize his keen sense of good vs. evil .

Crap, I think he's smarter than I am .

Red, I like the picture of Jager.If you run out of food in Arizona, we have an unlimited supply here in California.

On the furniture and off the furniture is a good example of consistent training actually.

If you allow the dog to get on the furniture when it suits him and then correct for being on the furniture for muddy paws the dog won't understand and you give mixed signals. If the dog is allowed on the furniture by invitation only and gets corrected anytime he jumps on the couch without being invited you're sending a clear signal, furniture is by invitation only and muddy paws is something you control because you know the difference. Alpha male/female are in charge of this perk.

I think it's up to us as the dog's owner to determine when it's acceptable for our dog given it's age, temperament, and the dog's purpose to break a command. I believe breaking a command in the proper context is acceptable under narrow conditions. Breaking a stay is the dog's way of telling me "I know what you said, but I really think there's a threat". When I tell him to down after acknowledging him, I demonstrate I'm in control and I don't inhibit the dog's radar.

This is highly situational, highly dependent on a host of variables that we cannot hope to convey in written form. Just like soldiers are trained to obey instantly on the parade ground, they also (if well trained) know when they can question an order, offer up alternatives, and when they know they just have to jump up in the face of withering fire.

I want Jäger to break a down/stay when there's a threat to the pack or one of it's members and not because he's happy, hungry, or bored. I believe my dog can make that distinction to give alarm or come closer to me and wait to see what the pack leader wants him to do. All of this is based on me, my bride, Jäger, and our lifestyle.

how do you know the dog is breaking the stay because he thinks the smoke is a bad thing. What is the difference between a dog breaking the stay with a distraction like a bouncing ball? We know the smoke is bad and the ball is good, but aren't we rationalizing the dog's behaviour? If the dog has never been trained to recognize smoke as being something to alert to, then we are deciding why he broke his command.

Reasonable questions Lee.

I think we always need to be careful about anthropomorphizing our dogs.

Smoke and fire seem to be wired into animals genetic memory. Like swallows returning to capastrano or salmon returning to the spawning grounds of their birth, animals know smoke and fire can harm them. Notice animals flee a forrest fire even when there hasn't been one in the area for a generation. A bouncing ball simply doesn''t convey a threat.

My dog just broke a sit stay less than an hour ago and I corrected him for it immediately. A lady (my bride knows from church) brought an invite to the door. He wanted to meet-and-greet even though we were both looking at the same event, she clearly didn't have the danger vibe going because Goober was acting like a goofy puppy. So I busted him until he stayed put.

Exactly Red.

And this is not to you Red, the whole point of my thread was to see if breaking the stay was allowed by you folks when there was danger or perceived danger?

If the dog breaks a stay with every Tom Dick and Harry that passes, that's a problem with his training (me) and not the dog.

If the dog breaks a stay because the doorbell rang, that's a problem with his training (me) and not the dog.

If the dog breaks a stay because an aggressive convict is approaching me?? Different story, at least for me.

If the dog breaks a stay due to smoke/fire?? Different story, at least for me.

My dog is capable of knowing the difference between breaking the stay over a potentially dangerous convict and breaking the stay over a bouncing red ball.

After posting and reading everyone's input, I learned that the answer is twofold:

1) Trust him just a little more to know good guys from bad guys.

2) Simultaneously, work much harder at the STAY command under heavy distractions.

This was a very interesting thread for me and I am always intrigued by how people live with their dogs and what they expect from them. Very cool perspectives .

Judy