Quote: Rich Pallechio

I'm one of those who is on the fence about vaccinations. In 1961 we got a gsd puppy. The neighbor across the street bred his female with our next door neighbor's male (literally a backyard breeder.) The breeder did not have any of the pups vaccinated. When we got Brenda, my dad took her to the vet and had her vaccinated. Shortly thereafter we learned that every other puppy from that litter died of distemper.

 Quote: Rich Pallechio

But ... I had Hans vaccinated. Now he has food and environmental allergies. Are they the results of the vaccinations?

Maybe, OR, could it be the result of a weak-immune system dog that would have died with his littermates were it not for the vaccination?

There are a lot of ways to look at this interesting topic.

 Quote: Debbie Bruce

Natalia
Pups do have to be 8 weeks before they can be shipped with a commercial carrier. Pups going into Canada have to be certified as having at least one Parvo shot. Rabies is required for every pup or dog, domestic or export, that is over 12 weeks old.

this is not true.

We have shipped countless pups to Canada and they do not require Parvo vaccines.

NO place that I am aware of requires a rabies vaccine at 12 weeks.

I would guess that I have shipped over 30 litters of puppies over the last 3 or 4 years (GSD and Mal) so I have a bit of experience with what is required in this situation.

Thanks for clearing that up Cindy! My brother in law is looking at buying a pup from a breeder IN Canada, and I noticed it said they don't vaccinate their pups either. I told my BIL, I really liked that breeder.

Now, another question, as far as never vaccinating dogs, is everyone talking about all vaccinations? Including rabies?

Amber
I usually don't vaccinate pups until they are at least 6 1/2 weeks old, with 3 vaccinations maximum. My breeding dogs that I have raised are usually only give two 5-way shots. The parents of the ill-fated litter: Maternal grandmother and Grandfather were most likely over vaccinated until I got them 2 years ago. Their daughter, the mom of the litter, I raised has had 2 or 3 5-way puppy shots. The paternal grandparents had minimal vaccinations. The father of the litter had two Parvo shots as a pup.
Other than the Rabies shot for the adults 2 weeks prior to dead and sick pups everything else was the same for all my other litters with no previous loses.

Amber,

Yes, there are a lot of ways to look at it, and, unfortunately, the best way to look at it (the scientific way) isn't being pursued.

Rich

Cindy
You are right about no parvo vaccine being required for Canada. I just checked my notes for the regulations listed on the Canadian inspection website, http://www.inspection.gc.ca, it states that the dog can not be vaccinated younger than 6 weeks of age and they must be free of disease. Canada does require a rabies vaccine after 3 months if they are imported into Canada.
The airlines as well as the licensed ground transport services that I have used will not accept any puppy or dog older than 12 weeks without a Rabies certification from a licensed vet. If you have shipped pups over 12 weeks old how do you get around the very particular and fussy airline employees about the rabies certificate? The 12 week Rabies rule I was referring to applies to animals shipped with a commercial carrier.

 Quote: rich pallechio

Amber,

Yes, there are a lot of ways to look at it, and, unfortunately, the best way to look at it (the scientific way) isn't being pursued.

Rich

Do you mean in general, or in this thread? If you mean in general then I would say that the effect on vaccinations and the immune system *has* been studied scientifically. The problem is that "scientific study" doesn't really mean proof, unfortunately.

There are almost always studies that refute the original study and more studies that refute the second study and so on and so on. But most people...vets/scientists/random-sampling-of-other-professions would agree that vaccines tax the immune system, which is why you don't give massive doses all at once, or every shot available all at once (of course, they keep consolidating multiple vaccines into one shot...sigh). To some people, the benefits outweigh the risks. For others, not so much. But everyone seems to have their heart in the right place regardless of what they decide: We want to do what's best.

That's why I try to read as much as I can (from all sides) with an open mind...consider the source (who's doing the study and who is funding the study...often times drug companies/product manufacturers) AND the possible agenda of that source (very important to me). Real-world experience counts for a whole lot, too. After that, I guess it's just up to each individual to decide what makes the most sense to them based on the available information.

Incidentally, some of the most interesting sources of *relatively* unbiased studies come from people working on their dissertations. They generally aren't as agenda-laden as other studies and it's generally easier to find where they aquired their info from and look it up yourself.

Amber,

I mean that when I talk to vets, and people who I trust, such as my nephew, they tell me the issue isn't being studied by the scientific community. What they have to go on are accepted practices and their own experience.

The kind of studies I want to see are the kind that are published in peer-reviewed journals and duplicated by independent researchers. When I ask about that, I'm told aren't any studies.

The same is true about raw feeding. I asked my vet about it, he is against it. I asked him why, he repeated the same thing I had heard from others, that there is a bacterial risk. He also brought up the studies done by the dog food companies, which he admitted are paid for by people with a vested interest in the outcome. To my knowledge, dog food company studies are not peer-reviewed and duplicated by independent researchers.

I asked my vet how many dogs he had treated who had suffered ill effects from raw diets. None. I asked him to send me information. What he sent me came from vet web pages that discussed the bacterial risk again, with no examples of dogs who had suffered ill effects from a raw diet. Common sense tells these vets that dogs who eat raw food are at risk of bacterial infections. Common sense tells me that dogs in the wild do not cook or process their food. So if you are going to tell me raw diets are bad for dogs, show me the scientific evidence that proves it. I feel the same way about vaccines. There is a lot of anecdotal evidence about problems with them, but no hard scientific proof.

What I would like to see is a study that looks at dogs with a history of vaccination and dogs with no history of vaccination, that compares the health problems each of them have, or don't have.

What I would like to see is a study of dogs who are fed raw and dogs who are fed kibble, that compares their health.

So to answer your question, I mean in general, not on this thread.

If these studies have been undertaken, and you can point me to them, please do.

Rich

Edited by Rich Pallechio (08/28/2007 04:36 PM)
Edit reason: Asked for studies

I sold the litter very fast, they were all gone by the age of 9 weeks, I still have one here from that litter and she has been sold since the age of 8 weeks but she is going to Hawaii and I agreed to hold her until the age that she can handle quarantine at minimal time.She leaves the 17th of September. Everyone that bought a pup ,did not even question me on the fact that I did not and will not vaccinate the pups (as long as they are with me) They were impressed with all my dogs health.I told them that if they wanted to vaccinate that was up to them but that they would leave my house with absolute NO vaccinations done.
I have to say that most did vaccinate their pups later on,but not all the vaccinations that the vet tries to sell you when you bring a pup for the first time.They also all 6 get raw diets today and have been from the time they were weaned.That was a plus for me.We have 3 pups in our Schutzhund Club and they look pretty amazing.My daughter was diagnosed with Juvenile Rheumatoid Arthritis at the age of 18 months one day after her first set of immunizations , I had to, because of the day care she was going to attend and the day after her shots she was very ill, they cannot tell us that it was the cause that triggered it but they could not say it was'nt. Ever since I researched "vaccinations" for both Human and pets.We over immunize both, I believe in some but not when it's over done .When you look deep into it , you'll realize the mighty dollar is always the main reason.Look how much $$$$$ vets would loose if we would to cut in half the amount of immunizations given to pets! TOO MUCH!!
OK back to the thread cause if I get going on this topic of shots I might be here a while..
The pups were brought out to the training field at 7 weeks to run around , but I did not allow any strange dogs to approach( for many reasons), they were inside a baseball field (enclosed) .
Just don't hang out at the pound while you have pups at home
I had no problems selling them that way at all, actually people liked the idea.

Cindy is correct, NO vaccines are required to import a pup into Canada. Rabies is required if the pup is over 4 months of age. A health certificate however, is required.

I breed and don't do vaccines and you will actually find many german shepherd breeders that are 'open' to this if they are asked and you talk to them upfront about it. I am getting more and more requests for the non vaccinated raw fed puppy. It is SO nice to see. I talk about both of these issues IN DEPTH with all my puppy buyers. MANY are open to it after doing some research and will go by my recommendations!!!

The hardest part will be finding the 'lines' you want and the breeder willing to do this. Although I think there are likley more working line breeders of german shepherds open to this vs. the other lines.

I have a litter coming up that is 3rd generation raw and minimal/no vaccines. However, it is likley already sold out. I can give you some recomendations if you need them.