Lee, as stated prior, I've been only doing it for a short time, there are others on board here that have been doing it for years. But in answers to your questions: No, No and No. Salmonella is not an issue, the dogs' digestive system is quick. Dogs eat far worse stuff than that, yummy rotten road kill, stinky washed up fish ect...

Do your research on the foods you want to feed. The fresh salmon that comes from the Pacific NW has a worm that you want to avoid. The salmon needs to be cooked or canned. Freezing food also helps with killing off bacteria if you have any concerns.

I do know of three dogs that have died of bloat, which occured after being fed kibble. (I'm NOT stating that caused it, but it is coincidental.)

There are companies that do produce good food and dogs are doing well on it. And if we didn't have the rendering plants doing their jobs, the alternatives would be far worse. What needs to be addressed are the potentially toxic substances and other questionable organic matters that are entering the rendering plants. Other than our pets, this also affect us people as consumers at the top of the food chain.

Salmonella, E. coli, and other bacteria are of concern to dogs. The same strains that cause disease in people do not cause the same problems in dogs, but strains of these bugs are pathogenic to dogs.

How so Chad, what affect do the germys that you listed have on dogs?

Also, in dogs that are affected, what are the most common ways they are infected (exposed to) the little nasties?

Chad, I'm also curious what your credentials are- maybe I have forgotten?? Is it ok if you tell us what you do or what your educational backround is?

Not trying to put you on the spot, but you did mention that you, ". . .have far more knowledge about nutrition and biochemistry than any other contributor. . .", to this webboard.

I'd like to hear what exactly that knowledge is and if you are actively working in the area of nutrition?

 Quote:

Originally posted by Lee Ziegler:

1. For those who have gone the raw route, has anyone ever had to have a bone surgically removed from their dog?

2. Have you dogs ever come down with salmonella?

3. Has your dog ever died from this type od feeding?

I have fed RAW for over 4 years. Switched two older dogs and I have raised 4 puppies. Nike was raw fed from 9.5 weeks and then I raised her entire litter on raw until 8 weeks and the 3 I have are still raw fed. My dogs also have eaten field mice, raid baby bunny nests and catch the occasional ground hog.

Answers to your questions:
1. No.
2. No, nor have they gotten salmonella from raw eggs or the chicken poop they so enjoy eating. They also have never gotten e.Coli from the cattle, horse and deer poop they eat.
3. No.

Another book to read is "Raw Meaty Bones" by Dr. Tom Lonsdale.

 Quote:

Van Camp asked
Chad, I'm also curious what your credentials are

I did a quick google on Chad. His creds are bonified -- PhD & MS from Cornell, BS from North Carolina State. Current area of research is recombinant protein expression, mineral bioavailability, and nutritional biochemistry. Current post is Assistant Professor of Animal Science, Iowa State University. His home page lists a number of recent publications in the nutritional field. He is also a member of the "Center for Integrated Animal Geonomics" at Iowa State. Previously, he worked at the Center for Veterinary Medicine, USFDA, Rockville, MD. Professional affiliations include the American Society of Animal Science and the American Society of Microbiology.

From a post to this board on 10/24/2001, My concentration for my M.S. research was improving the bioavailability of Ca, P, and trace minerals from plant sources for monogastric animals. My fields of concentration for my Ph.D. were nutritional biochemistry and microbiology.

As another Big 8 grad who lived with mostly Ag majors in college, I recall that Iowa State had a pretty well-regarded Animal Science Dept.

I suspect that Dr. Stahl has studied what happens in the digestion process in greater depth than anyone else around here.

However, the bottom line is that a balanced diet is best for both me and my pup. The question is how to get there. Eating a variety of foods is the likely the best way achieve a nutritional balance. Feeding grocery store kibble from companies run by MBA's more concerned keeping their jobs than your dog's health is not likely to get any kind of nutritional balance. You will get; "What is the cheapest thing I can get today."

Sooo, you think that a dog that drinks from toilets and eats poop with no ill effect (meaning any dog without digestive and/or immune system issues) will get salmonella from meat that has been washed and is fresh? If that's the case then I guess I had better quit indulging in raw meringue and rare meat <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> .

I must be an odd bird. I have read of dogs with impactions and perforations and bloat from raw bones. Do I particularly care as far as what I feed my gang? No.

I feed some raw meat, some cooked, some raw bones, some veggies, fruits, cottage cheese etc and some kibble and canned.

Yes, my GSD with EPI loves raw food but getting it with almost no fat and very minimal fiber is a chore, and she does suffer for it, and I can't miss it with the pick up after.

I feed raw backs and necks - no choking but some brutal craps from that same dog mentionned above. Yep, and GSDs with genetic EPI or weak tummies is not a rare thing at ALL.

I have fed raw fresh huge marrow bones that she has splintered - yep - she can shred a Kong too. This bull about only cooked bones splinter is a total crock. Same deal with a pal of mine. Recreational bones can quickly become shards.

I have fed short cut raw marrow bones and had to take her to the vet to get the bone cut off her lower jaw, only once tho, learned my lesson I guess.

She also has broken all her canines on raw bones.

My other puppers - no probs, 2 of whom had almost no teeth, and needed some things mashed more than normal in order to enjoy them, one with a squashed pelvis who I have to watch like a hawk for constipation, (the GSD/Husky), and the baby has had NO positives as far as his teeth go. Interesting that. The husky/GSD has the pearliest teeth ever seen, the baby's teeth are not nice at all, both came to me at approx one year of age.

I will continue to do raw chicken and turkey necks and backs, and some marrow bones, and raw meat, do I find a religion in raw, no, do I stay off raw lists as no probs can be mentionned - ya.

If a study could be done, and I think it should, I wonder why people think the kibble gang should do it??? Why would they???

Billinghurst is a million or billion dollar industry now, and I am sure Pitcairn, Lonsdale, Volhard, Johnson and Schultze are no slouches either, why not put their money where their mouths are? Yep,I have all the books except Johnson, but I do not get the fanaticism at all or the need to say everyone else should prove it is "bad" when none of them will make any effort to prove it is "great". Just my two cents.

Lauren,

The point is that you need to have a realistic look at the potential problems. The fact that there is a potential for a problem doesn't mean that you will have it. But to poo poo the potential for a problem isn't a realistic position to take. There are people that have had real and severe problems with the raw diet. Those that support it don't want to hear it.

I say the same thing my Vet said to me, "If you want to feed raw, go ahead and do it... but understand the potential problems that can be involved with it." To say that it is completely safe and there are no potential problems just isn't the situation. Know and understand the risks, if you choose to take them go for it.

Originally posted by Laureen Moran:


I have fed raw fresh huge marrow bones that she has splintered - yep - she can shred a Kong too. This bull about only cooked bones splinter is a total crock. Same deal with a pal of mine. Recreational bones can quickly become shards.

I have fed short cut raw marrow bones and had to take her to the vet to get the bone cut off her lower jaw, only once tho, learned my lesson I guess.

She also has broken all her canines on raw bones.


Laureen,

the bones you are mentioning here are not what I consider *food* but as you point out recreational chew items. Anyone that has a large agressive chewer should be aware that giving marrow bones or any weight bearing bones from a hooved animal may cause teeth breakage.

I don't consider these things part of a raw diet and YES they can splinter.

My corgi can have them, the rest of my dogs~~NOPE.