Quote: Ptlm. Matthew Grubb

Mike… I just remembered that the Phoenix Police Dept. runs an all motivational/no compulsion program just like what Bob described. I’m sure they would be more than happy to help our boys over seas if you called!

That would be great but this is mostly a personal intrest, honestly it is going to take A LOT for me to change my ways but i am more then willing to do it if it means better training for me and my dog.

I would happily receive some training videos from them though

 Quote: Ptlm. Matthew Grubb

Mike… I just remembered that the Phoenix Police Dept. runs an all motivational/no compulsion program just like what Bob described. I’m sure they would be more than happy to help our boys over seas if you called!

I just sent them a e-mail from the Police Departments website, hopefully it will get passed on to the K9 Guys, if you know anyone over there tell them to check there e-mail

Michael,
I'm pretty sure it can be done thusly; as soon as the decoy goes 'dead', run another bad guy right by, dog loosens grip, 'good out'. The dog gets what he wants, another fight and we finally find something to do with the likes of the M. Vicks and dog poisoners of the world! Seeing as we have an endless supply of bait even us hobbyists can do positive out training. Don't you think?
Seriously though, tomorrow morning is the weekly work out with a helper. He works with several PD departments in the state, as well as decoy for Mondio, French ring, and SCH. I'm going to run your serious guestion by him. Bet he comes up with a better answer than me.

If my dog isn't learning, I'm doing something wrong.
Randy

 Quote:

As far as obedience goes, for normal training i completly see this but if the dog knows nothing bad is going to happen to it and the main thing he wants in the world is to bite then why would he out?

So he could bite again?

 Quote: randy allen

Michael,
I'm pretty sure it can be done thusly; as soon as the decoy goes 'dead', run another bad guy right by, dog loosens grip, 'good out'. The dog gets what he wants, another fight and we finally find something to do with the likes of the M. Vicks and dog poisoners of the world! Seeing as we have an endless supply of bait even us hobbyists can do positive out training. Don't you think?
Seriously though, tomorrow morning is the weekly work out with a helper. He works with several PD departments in the state, as well as decoy for Mondio, French ring, and SCH. I'm going to run your serious guestion by him. Bet he comes up with a better answer than me.

If my dog isn't learning, I'm doing something wrong.
Randy

That seems to be what everyone keeps saying but in my mind this would not work.

You train your dog that once it lets go of the first decoy then there will always be a second one and your dog will completly forget about the first.

Now the problem comes when you are on the street, you let your dog go to attack a suspect once you call your dog out your dog is going to immediately start looking for another suspect. This would not be good because his focus should still be on the first suspect.

And please, i am not trying to dismiss anyones suggestion's. I am just trying to do a through "investigation" as best i can

Yeah Michael,
You're probably right. At least until the justice department lets the courts stamp pedophiles as 'dog Bait'. Because until then you'd have nothing for the dog to eat when on the street. I see your point.
I'm still going to run the question by my helper tomorrow.

Randy

Hi Mike! I'll try and answer as best I can. Bottom line here is you are the dog's 6th handler. I think that is a huge factor.
I probably wont answer the questions in order. (ADD is a wonderful thing)LOL!
Our outs are trained motivationally. When they out, the get another bite. Simple as that! All the dogs at club have clean outs.
I wont BS you here and say it will be as easy on a "real" bite because I just don't know. I have absolutely no expierience with this. I do BELIEVE it will work though.
I don't believe in tunnel vision. If the dog is engaged with the bad guy and refuses the out, it's a training problem regardless of method.
Getting the bite is a HUGE reward. Why wouldn't the dog comply with obedience if it knows it WILL get the bite.
In our obedience for the bite, the dog has to be in perfect heeling position in order to get the bite. They totally get this!
If they break, the handler gives a "FOOEY" and the helper goes passive. The dog gets nothing. This is all about the initial obedience, not the method.
Those that say "My dog is to serious/tough to respond to this method", I say why is it so tough? With a tough dog, of course it going to fight physical correction. That fight is part of what makes them tough. WHY would, even a serious/tough dog refuse a command if it is trained to KNOW good things will happen for compliance. That's a "training/trust your partner" issue. Your supposed to be a team, not a dominant and submissive pair. Pack leadership, human/dog leadership isn't about overpowering the team member.This is my beef with "handler aggressive" dogs. ANY tough/serious dog will respond in kind if it's unfairly corrected, heavy handed corrected, or it just, plain and simple, is a dog with an unsound temperment.
I've been told that my own dog would be a nasty, snarling beast if trained with heavy compulsion. As it is, he's a perfect sweetheart (with me LOL!)
From day one he didn't need much of a reason to get nasty with the helpers. He KNOWS he's gonna get the bite if he pays attention to me. That's a training/trust issue, not a training method.
I wont sit here and try and change peoples minds about how great motivational training is. All good training methods work. Any good trainer should be able to use any method to get results. Positive or compulsion. It's about the abilities of the trainer and the dog, not the method. I just choose to train with a method that creats a dog that will work to get something it wants, not a dog that works to avoid something it dislikes.
Again, I'm not trying to change the world. I'm just trying to explain what I do in training.

I have a question in a variation of the original topic.
Suppose that you taught your dog to recall using PP. For example he gets treats when he recalls. But his favorite thing in the world is to chase rabbits. How could PP teach him to recall in the presence of a running rabbit?

I can train a dog to recall off a rabbit, but it involves using an ECollar. I don't really see any other way around it.

I would be willing to pay a good sum of money, for someone that could teach me a Pure Positive method, that would give me the results of an ECollar.

I realize that it could be done with SOME dogs. However that leaves out the majority of most "drivey" dogs.

Every time I run into a PP trainer, who goes on about their method giving the same reliability as Conventional /ECollar training I challenge them to a friendly competition that involves recall under heavy distraction. They always find an excuse to back down.
In the one case, I offered a trainer that has a full time PP school a challenge. I said if she could show me results superior to what I was getting, I would be willing to spend a lot of money at her school. She replied that she didn't have time for "Machoism". Whatever!!!

 Quote: bob scott

Your supposed to be a team, not a dominant and submissive pair. Pack leadership, human/dog leadership isn't about overpowering the team member.This is my beef with "handler aggressive" dogs. ANY tough/serious dog will respond in kind if it's unfairly corrected, heavy handed corrected, or it just, plain and simple, is a dog with an unsound temperment.

Interesting, I hope this is a wakeup call for people who have issues with "handler aggressive" dogs. I don't have a lot of experience with working dogs, but I really do understand why or how this happen. I adopted a dog from humane society last year, he had an issue with pain aggressive and be very aggressive if someone tries to discpline him. I never had a dog act like this before. I don't even know he had this issues when I adopted him either.

The first week I brought him home, he hates going in the crate for some reasons. He would bare his teeth to me if I tell him to go in there. I didn't get mad, but I was shocked at how he behave to me. I grew up with 3 dogs who love crates. I got on my knee (submissive position) and then he came to me with a wagging tail. I attached a leash on him and put him in the crate. I didn't even yell, beat, or get so mad at him. Now he has no problem going in crate and I find him nap in there once in a while.

I think he still have some pain aggression, but he used to react a lot when I touch his paws. Now he doesn't care if I touch or tickle it. I took him to the vet a few months ago, he gets upset when a veterinrian puts a therometer in his butt.

 Quote: bob scott

From day one he didn't need much of a reason to get nasty with the helpers. He KNOWS he's gonna get the bite if he pays attention to me. That's a training/trust issue, not a training method.
I wont sit here and try and change peoples minds about how great motivational training is. All good training methods work. Any good trainer should be able to use any method to get results. Positive or compulsion. It's about the abilities of the trainer and the dog, not the method. I just choose to train with a method that creats a dog that will work to get something it wants, not a dog that works to avoid something it dislikes.
Again, I'm not trying to change the world. I'm just trying to explain what I do in training.

I really like what you say because it makes a lot of sense to me.