Quote: norman epstein

Cameron wrote in part:

"It was only AFTER I had already built up that bond. The dog was focused on me and was looking to me for what to "do". You don't have this with a new pup that you have not bonded with yet."

It may be I am not understanding your above. Are you saying that allowing strangers to pet your pup for a few minutes will in some way hinder that pups bonding with you. Norman

Yes, there are times when that can. A stranger will always be an unknown factor - you don't know what they will do. No matter how "normal" or calm they appear. And for the first few months I want ALL praise/attention/play to be with me. If the pup can play with every yahoo they meet there is no motivation for them to focus on me if they know that other people can provide the same "service". Usually I tell them something neutral to the effect of "My dog is in training/working right now so I need her to stay focused, but thank you for asking". After the pup is a few months old I set up situations with people that I know to introduce the pup to meeting people calmly, but only after I have laid a good foundation with the pup. I don't like people to "gush" all over my dog and over stimulate them to the point where they are practically turning themselves inside out to play/get attention whatever. I prefer the situation to be calm. An overly affectionate response from a person unknown to the pup can be scary to some, and to others it can overly excite them. There have been so many times that I have seen handlers allowing someone they don't know pet their pup, and if the pup starts to jump/get overly excited they have to try and "reel" them back in only to have the stranger wrap their arms around the pup and say "oh, it's ok I have dogs too". The average person seems to think that it is acceptable to have a dog jump up when meeting a new person. I do not find that acceptable at all. Bottom line, I want meeting people to be a positive experience for all involved. If the person encourages or excites the pup to the point where they are jumping up I have to correct the behavior. I don't like to do that, I would prefer the situation to be 100% positive. The only way to ensure that is with people that I know can be calm around my pup.

I don't mind if once and awhile people give my dogs a pat if they ask first. Frankly, not a whole lot of people are interested in petting Carbon without asking so it's not really an issue.

But in my experience anyway, people don't want to just give a small pat to a puppy and just walk away. With puppies it seems like everyone wants to smother them to death and pick them up and wrestle with them and give them treats and make high-pitched cooing sounds and generally make the pup think it's happy hour and feeding time all rolled into one. How could I, as one person, be more fun than a gaggle of humans all flipping out over the cuteness of the puppy? And with puppies, people rarely ask before they fondle.

So yes, I think if left unchecked it can change the bond with the handler in that the puppy could see people in general as being fun and treat-giving and amazing, as opposed to seeing just me that way.

I want my pup to be okay with some human contact, for sure. But I look at socialization as exposure meaning: these things are part of your life, get used to them. Just like cars, for example. I don't want my dog afraid of them...I want him calm around them, in them, etc. But if cars always spit out treats and rubbed my dog and generally went ga-ga over my dog, I'm sure I'd have a hard time getting him to focus on me whenever one went by or was near us.

Minor contact of my choosing is fine. The nutso loving that seems to be the norm with puppies is not. At least not to me. But different people want different things with their dogs. Some people love the dogs that love everyone equally and just live a goofy life. To each his own, I guess.

EDIT: This was all about a well-balance pup. A fearful pup would be overwhelmed by all the molesting and freaked out and wondering why you...the leader...aren't protecting them. Another way the bond could be harmed, IMO.

Cameron wrote in part:

If the pup can play with every yahoo they meet there is no motivation for them to focus on me if they know that other people can provide the same "service".

No one said that the pup was supposed to play with every yahoo available. Moreover I don't see how someone petting your pup a few minutes a day will cause that pup to look elsewhere for attention when you are giving it to him for 99% of his day. Nor did I say that you shouldn't control the situation. For the record, this all started because someone said that Ed recommend that no one should touch your pup and I disagreed and it seems you do also. So lets all try to keep this in the same frame of reference.

Amber wrote in part:

So yes, I think if left unchecked it can change the bond with the handler in that the puppy could see people in general as being fun and treat-giving and amazing, as opposed to seeing just me that way.

No one said that this petting should be unchecked. If you train your dog you will be giving it far more treats and affection than any one else, so I can't see how your bond with the dog will be affected by others petting him or giving him a treat. I have been letting people pet and give my schutzhund dogs treats for over 30 years and my dogs have not been affected and neither has my bond with my dogs. I think sometimes we worry to much. I mean a grown dog has the cognitive ability of a 3-5 year old child. It's more important to me that the dog does not become to suspicions of everyone else. Dogs when trained become suspicious of behaviors not people. I expect my dogs as an adult to be completely neutral when strangers approach and not be on edge because I have pulled him away from people when it was a pup or not let others approach. If I was raising a sentry dog or a perimeter guard dog I would not let anyone touch the pup because I want him then to view all who approach as a possible threat.

"It's more important to me that the dog does not become to suspicions of everyone else. "

Norman, that is exactly my feeling. I already had one fearful, reactive dog, and I sure didn't want another one. I bought a pup with a stable temperment, socialized him thoughly, and it has paid off. He lets people into the house, but guards against strangers at night. As to the bond we have, I think from the moment he put his head on my bare feet the first morning we had him, he has been my dog, body and soul. Another person may pat him, or even give him a treat, but they don't play tug, they don't train, and he doesn't sleep on the floor by their bed. This dog follows me everywhere, he never follows anyone else when off lead in the park, not even my grown daughter. And I do not flatter myself thinking that this is because I am the world's best owner or trainer, it is the nature of dogs in general, and GSDs in particular.

I think that the phrase "No One Pets My Dog" is being a little mis-interpreted. Ed's method for neutralising your dog to strangers is in no way going to cause a dog to be wary or suspicious of people. It's a very gentle, positive way of showing that you are the better choice for his attention.

I think one of the reasons I find it important to have my dog accept pats from strangers is that I live in a very large city. We walk on the streets daily, and in the parks, and it is really critical that he be relaxed around crowds. Obviously, I do not ever want someone to touch him without asking, but if they did, I sure don't want him to snarl or bite. Ed may know very well how to teach his dogs to be neutral, it has been easier for me to teach tolerance. I don't worry about a loss of his affections or his interest in me, I know I trump all others. Also, Ed's dogs are very different from mine. I know that PSDs are not touched by strangers, but my dog is a pet, with a naturally relaxed temprement and far lower drives.

Polly, if you have a well adjusted dog they don't need to be petted and loved on all the time. My dogs go to stores, to festivals and into crowds for the exposure of it. They were not petted and loved on by strangers as pups. They don't snarl or snap or shy away. They are relaxed.

The method of socialization, IMO, depends on the puppy. A pup that is more shy will need exposure to learn people are positive. Dogs that are more stable don't need to be touched or petted, just being around people is sufficient.

 Quote: Norman Epstein

Amber wrote in part:

So yes, I think if left unchecked it can change the bond with the handler in that the puppy could see people in general as being fun and treat-giving and amazing, as opposed to seeing just me that way.

No one said that this petting should be unchecked.

I know, Norman, and I wasn't saying that you implied that. I was just saying that, IME, letting one person pet a puppy often leads to a big cluster of people petting them. I see it happen all the time. I admit, I even feel the gravitational pull that the polar-tec fuzz and puppy-smell gives off. But I resist. Most people don't. It can quickly turn into a hyper love-fest.

So I prefer the 'no-petting' rule as a guideline, but I do allow certain people at certain times to show friendliness to my pups, or to touch them.

And about what Ed said about people not petting puppies IS being taking out of context, IMO. I believe that Ed is talking about stable, well-balanced, naturally outgoing and curious pups. I know that somewhere in a video or article he mentioned that having strangers offer a puppy treats is actually a good way to help a fearful dog, until he gets over his fear. That's the way I remember it anyway.

I don't want a dog that's terrified or mistrustful of individual people or of crowds. And I don't want a pup that's spastically happy everytime someone new comes along, either. I want a middle ground and that's what I got following the general 'no pet' rule.

 Quote: Norman Epstein

I expect my dogs as an adult to be completely neutral when strangers approach and not be on edge because I have pulled him away from people when it was a pup or not let others approach.

I 100% agree with you that if you pull the dog away and refuse to let anyone get close you can cause issues. But this is not what I do and it's not what Ed says either, I'm sure. People approach my pups all the time...that's part of the exposure/socialization, and I do not yank them away if they do try to pet my dog without asking. I'm polite and I deal with it and we go on our way.

 Quote: Norman Epstein

I think sometimes we worry to much.

I know that I probably do! But after seeing people not worry enough this is the way I'd rather the pendulum swings.