Quote: Cameron Feathers

 Quote: Ira Victor

Anyway, things have gotten a lot better around here in the last 24 hours, and the pup doesn't seem to mind being corrected more strongly at all.

This is huge. There are no other ways to explain to you how important it is to set the pup up to NOT be corrected, rather than acclimate it to being corrected. ...

I hope so too. Set the pup up to NOT be corrected, rather than acclimate it to being corrected more strongly -- this is a huge part of what the responses here are trying to point out.

 Quote: Carol Boche

... IMHO, there is no reason for a pup to be corrected during playtime, hence the reason play should be done without the other dog there. Until he learns manners and responds quickly and obediently the first time you give a command (which should be taught with positive reinforcement) then he needs to be separated from the other dog. ...

 Quote: Ira Victor

I know I'm getting a lot of well-meaning advice here, and I'm not trying to be stubborn, but I can't help but feel that some of you folks see a bigger problem than there really is. Or, maybe I'm completely wrong, I dunno.

We just see what can happen down the road.

With dogs, short-term fixes create incredible problems down the road. A balanced, long-term approach to dog handling is always the best bet.

It is virtually impossible to isolate one aspect of a dog from another, they are integrated beings, everything has an effect on something else.

I correct my puppy for certain things- but more importantly, I try never to set my pup up for failure.

I would rather have my dog in her crate to avoid the problem, than have to correct her.

As a handler, I accept responsibility for all of my dogs actions. If my dog screws up, it's my fault. Period. Regardless of how, or why, it's my fault. I failed to control the circumstances and environment, and I allowed my dog to fail.

As rule, I ONLY correct a pup for rank issues, and only when there is no other way. And by rank issues, I mean rank issues with ME.

If I do my job correctly, there shouldn't be a reason to correct for interactions with other dogs.

If the pup were to try to bite or act aggressively when I was handling it, trimming nails, etc, I would correct. Acting possessive over toys, I would correct if I couldn't redirect (with another toy, etc)

Taking toys away from other dogs - I wouldn't allow them the opportunity, therefore no correction would be needed. All toys belong to YOU. Not the dogs.

And more importantly, you don't want your pup to grow up seeing other dogs as an opportunity to play rather than focus on you, and you definitely don't want your pup to grow up to full size and see other dogs as a way to release energy or aggression. It may not seem like a big deal now, but in a year?

 Quote: Ira Victor

.... he's too hard for that. I've been getting tougher myself, shaking his neck and making him yelp, and it's really helping. ....

Could I ask what caused you to realize or to believe that your pup was hard?

Yikes...I just re-read my other post when I mentioned time and place for correction......want to say that I do not correct my pups too often at all....only for really out of control, obnoxious, and BAD behavior....like seriously trying to bite me for not being allowed to do something.

 Quote: Ira Victor

the pup doesn't seem to mind being corrected more strongly at all.

How are you correcting this pup? Is it a leash correction or shaking it (I believe I saw the latter somewhere in the thread)? If a leash correction, what type of collar do you have on the pup? And, if you were to gauge the level of correction between a 1 and 10 with 10 being the absolute max, where would this fall?

I have seen pups get over-corrected and not seem to mind because they are traumatized, so I would be very careful about this. Yes, they will snap out of a hard correction, but a lasting imprint has been made especially since they are so young. I definitely do not advocate correcting pups at such a young age and am curious how you came to assess the hardness of this particular pup.

Maybe this is overwhelming to the O.P., a new forum member, at this point.

I just want to point out to the O.P. that all of the advice (which you may note, BTW, is basically very similar from one post to the next....) has been offered from the POV of caring about your dogs.

None of the people posting on the thread ever jump on just to be critical, and there's no intention of "ganging up."

 Quote:

Could I ask what caused you to realize or to believe that your pup was hard?

Well, for example, ever since I brought him home he's had a habit of eating, or at least picking up and chewing, small rocks every time we go outside. This is not only bad behavior, it can be dangerous, so for the first month or so, I kept a close eye on him and every time he picked up a rock, I'd take it out of his mouth and say "no". Gently, with no threats and no correction other than removing the rocks. We went way beyond the recommended 30 tries, and after a while I started raising my voice and he knew darn well that what he was doing was wrong but he kept doing it anyway.

Then I escalated to giving him a tug on his chain collar (this was before I saw the prong collar demonstration... I'd always thought they looked medieval, but now I've ordered one online). At first, gentle tugs with the "Leave it!" command, but all he would do was hide the rock in his mouth so I really had to dig for it. As soon as I released him, he was looking for another rock.

Then I started tugging harder to get his attention, but that didn't work either. It was frustrating for both of us, because neither one of us had any fun outside. He was always picking up rocks and I was always jerking him away or digging them out of his mouth, and the more time we spent outside the more frustrating it was getting for both of us.

He never showed any sign of cowering, or fear, or withdrawal, or anything else like that during this whole time. He was driven to chew rocks, and nothing I did made any impression on him.

Then, a couple of days ago, he picked up another rock and I said "Leave it", grabbed him by the scruff of the neck, pulled him quickly to the ground, and held him there until he squeaked, then I relaxed and so did he. As soon as I let him go, he jumped up and started licking my face as if nothing had happened, but he didn't pick up any more rocks that afternoon.

We repeated the performance once yesterday, and today he hasn't picked up any rocks at all yet. I'm not being mean to him, and I'm not doing it hard enough to hurt him.

Anyway, that's why I think he's a hard pup. That's just one example, there are others. He doesn't care if I correct him at times, and he never holds a grudge or seems affected by it afterwards.

And please don't get the impression I don't like him because of this! I love the little guy to death and I would NEVER do anything intentionally that might harm him. I'm not throwing him around, or hitting him, or getting mean, or screaming at him, or anything like that. When he yipes, it's more like him saying "Uncle" than it is him crying out.

But he's also stopped picking up rocks, at least for the last 2 days, and he doesn't seem to be otherwise affected.

To be honest Ira,
I do not think the pup is a hard pup from that explained scenario. It sounds like you thought the pup knew what was "wrong" behavior when he really did not, which is why he kept doing it.

AND, have you ever tried redirection? Like using his favorite toy or favorite food reward to entice him to pay attention to you rather than doing what he wants to do (like eating rocks)?

Not being harsh here, but redirection and positive reinforcement are REALLY wonderful things.....

Puppy Groundwork

AND

Using Markers

AND

Using Treats

AND

Theory of Motivation

Hope these help....they are wonderful, informative and easy to follow.

I absolutely believe that you love your dog. We all love our dogs, and I will do my best to help you with whatever you need. As we all will, sometimes a lot of information like this can be overwhelming. I was like that when I first started raw diet.

Geesh, all the replies I got, I thought my head would explode....

 Quote: Carol Boche

AND, have you ever tried redirection? Like using his favorite toy or favorite food reward to entice him to pay attention to you rather than doing what he wants to do (like eating rocks)?

Not being harsh here, but redirection and positive reinforcement are REALLY wonderful things.....

I wish I could do that. He doesn't have a favorite toy. He likes to play indoors, and he has plenty of toys to choose from, but outdoors he was never really interested in playing with anything for more than a minute or so. The last couple of days, though, he's shown an interest in the smaller-sized orange highway cone I bought him at Lowe's. He runs around the yard now, playing with it like a puppy should, instead of looking for things to eat.

I could redirect him with food. That's what he lives for. But I'd have to keep giving him treats the whole time we were out, and that's not a solution. He has to stop eating rocks. Period. I've taken some pretty sharp things out of his mouth, things that could really hurt him if he swallows them, and I just can't keep replacing rocks with treats. Nor can I spend the entire time constantly on guard, waiting for him to find his next tidbit.

Anyway, thanks everyone for your replies. I've spent an awful lot of time typing here today, and I am a little overwhelmed, so I'll pick it up tomorrow.