Quote: eric dziedzic

As to my actual question, the whole (aggressive dogs are weeded out) makes sense. Many people have said dogs do not show appreciation. Is that not similar to showing joy or excitement? I'm asking because I don't know, not being a wise guy. If they don't appreciate a better life, how do they learn that isolation for bad behavior is inappropriate and in time change their behavior?

Hey Eric
No, they do not show appreciation. High levels of anger, sadness, frustration, pity, they all translate into one thing for a dog: weakness. Joy/excitement is something entirely different, and yes they have it. Dogs live in the MOMENT, which means that they do not "remember" or "hold grudges" most importantly, once you establish a new rule, and there is no going back to the old way of treating them, even ingrained behaviors and habits can be forgotten about. Your dog is not learning because you isolate them, and he remembers, he is learning because you are consistently taking him away from the situation. He may not carry over the "oh I'd better behave or dad will give me a time out" but he will carry over "dad is consistent with the rules" and when you get after him for a behavior, he will respect your consistency with regard to pack behavior.
Now, when it comes to getting after him for inappropriate behavior, one question comes to mind: are you correcting the behavior when it happens? (you should) and then? putting him up to "teach" him?
If that is what you do with him, I'd suggest something a little different, and stop using the crate as the punishment. It doesn't work the way that I think you are hoping it will. Rotating which dog is out, and only allowing them to be together when you have a great recall is my recommendation, and if you are already there, then I'd correct the behavior, then move on. You can still put him in the crate (I'd recommend it actually, because it will help him to calm back down and break the cycle of aggression) but don't make it the punishment, and don't connect it to the punishment. The isolation is not the punishment, the correction is. The isolation is the way that you maintain the dog who is a difficult case.

Janice, that is exactly my question.

 Quote: eric dziedzic

As to my actual question, the whole (aggressive dogs are weeded out) makes sense. Many people have said dogs do not show appreciation. Is that not similar to showing joy or excitement? I'm asking because I don't know, not being a wise guy. If they don't appreciate a better life, how do they learn that isolation for bad behavior is inappropriate and in time change their behavior?

Eric,

I do think dogs show joy and excitement, as well as other emotions. I also believe that dogs live more in the present than in the past. When a dog has been rehomed, I don't think there is any way for us humans to know what's going on inside their little brains, as far as comparing their current circumstances to prior circumstances and then making the cognitive evaluation that the current circumstances are much better. But, so what? If they are happy in their new homes, with their new owners, and show joy and happiness in their demeanor and behavior, that's what matters. I don't think that has to be equated with them being able to show an appreciation for finding themselves in different, and much better circumstances than they were in before. (And, what about dogs who are rehomed, but who didn't come from terrible past environments, but had owners who died, or had some other misfortune that necessitated their having to give up their dogs? If they are fortunate in getting new homes with great new owners, they will eventually be happy and show joy in their new homes, too, but that doesn't mean they were unhappy in their former homes.)

That is a different issue from a dog learning. If every time a dog does something, there is a consequence to that behavior, that is consistently delivered in a timely enough fashion (isolation in your example), the dog eventually makes an association between "do this behavior" then "this consequence." Hopefully, the dog isn't just receiving consequences for unwanted behavior, but also, receiving great consequences (rewards) for desired behaviors, and so ends up repeating the behaviors that tend to bring about those great consequences.

Anyway, that's my opinion<G>

leih merigian

 Quote: eric dziedzic

Many people have said dogs do not show appreciation. Is that not similar to showing joy or excitement? I'm asking because I don't know, not being a wise guy. If they don't appreciate a better life, how do they learn that isolation for bad behavior is inappropriate and in time change their behavior?

Hi Eric - nice to hear from you again!

I think we forget that dogs live much more in the here-and-now than we do. Most of my dogs over the years have been rescues, and they sure are joyful when I come home, when they are fed, when we go out and do something interesting, etc. However, they are not thinking "wow! This is so much better than being in the pound - I'm so grateful to Sarah for adopting me." They are thinking "Great! It's dinner time!" or whatever. The pound and their previous life is gone and forgotten, unless perhaps something triggers a bad memory or association (a dog that has been physically abused may continue to act fearful if it sees a suddenly upraised arm, for example).

Isolating a dog for bad behavior is what Will neatly defined as management, not training. I don't mean to say that isolation is not an effective way of dealing with a problem, but I have learned that dogs don't sit in isolation like prisoners in a cell, reflecting remorsefully on their wickedness and determining to do better. They don't think like that. For example: some years ago I had a very smart GSD x BC cross who was a bit of a butthead when young, and I followed a training recommendation to reprimand him, put him into a down-stay in a corner and pointedly ignore him to convince him of the error of his ways. He gave me huge remorseful bambi eyes for the first few minutes, then the next time I looked he was still in the corner but blissfully stretched out, fast asleep, and snoring gently. So much for isolation as a learning tool - well, he didn't learn much from this, but I did.

 Quote: michael hubert

im sorry connie oh, if you take a criminal out of society, because he commited a crime and put him in jail ,does that mean he will never commit another crime??? when he gets out.

Seriously, don't try and mock Connie or anyone in here. I have seen Ed banned people and this is not the place to put personal attack on anyone. I don't agree 100% with what you said. I agree with few things that Jennifer said. Not 100%, I'm in the middle of the fence. I have seen dogs where we couldn't do much, but keep them in isolation.

I don't think isolation is wrong; however, it is the safest way to protect everyone. I don't think all dogs should be isolated unless they can not be helped in anyway. Will, Cameron, Ed, Connie, Mike, and others are people who I considered know alot about dogs.

No, dogs do not show appreciation. They do not remember how bad it was before and compare to how great it is now.
That is why the easiest way to approach and rehab a really badly abused dog is to act like it didn't happen, and move on.
The behaviors you describe with your dogs are basically the difference between dogs that are dominant, and dogs that are really not.
It just happens that the more loveable submissive one happens to be the rescue in this case, and the more obnoxious and seemingly unappreciative one is not a rescue. It's easy to draw that assumption, but it's not really the case. It's also easier to see appreciation if we are looking for it. Humans like to have feedback, know that they are doing the right thing, and it's all together too easy to start expecting some kind of gratitude for rescuing a dog. Problem is, that is not a behavior that they have. THEY don't know they were on death row, THEY don't know that being starved or beaten is not "normal" they just accept their reality and move along. They don't go to Rex down the street and compare notes about how their owners treat them, or see if they are getting a raw deal. If their reality changes, they respond differently, but it's not because of appreciation, it's because they have to change along with their situation, for survival. It's why we can say they truly ONLY live in the moment.

Well, this is my take on it:
I don't think that rescues are grateful to their new owners, exactly, but, if they have a decent knowledgable new owner, the rescue will learn new behaviors if they had previous bad behaviors that got them sent away to start with.
Not all rescues are in the shelter due to their own bad behavior, and the shelters/pounds usually do cull the dogs that they deem "unadoptable" for one reason or another.
So, no, I don't think rescues are grateful, per se, but they sure are happy to be somewhere safe and warm, with good food and their own people to keep them safe. (I work with rescue, and have two rescued dogs of my own right now)
And I do believe that dogs do remember past bad treatment, at least to a certain extent.
My male rescue, Harley was terribly handshy when we brought him home, he's lot better and loves being stroked and scratched by us, but still has a very small flinch at a hand coming towards him.
He will never be completely over his food aggression, I think, he has learned "leave it" very well, and we can walk near him when he is eating now with no problems, but he still and always will, eat in his crate. Why set him up for failure? Or have an accidental dog fight between him and CeeCee?
And we have managed to teach him that he doesn't need to hide behind the couch when we get out a flyswatter, but that took a couple of years of habituation.
And, you can get a bad dog from a reputable breeder. Even a dog from good lines can have something wired wrong in their brain, it happens to the best of breeders.

im sorry cameron, i believe dogs never forget things that happen to them,good or bad, if they do , all dogs would be perfect, dogs are products of there enviornment and will act accordingly is some cases, when you take in an abused dog its going to take a while for him to get used to being nice too.

all dogs ARE a product of their environment. When the rescue environment is unstable, the dog continues to be unstable. MOST rescued dogs are adopted because the owners feel sorry. This is an unproductive motive, and the dog pays the price. The faster the HUMAN moves on, the faster the dog moves on. When was the last time YOU took on a extreme case and turned it around in two months? One week? I do it all the time. And I can prove it too.
Those who were at the seminar met my latest in person, and I have posted about hims since day one.
When the environment is right, the dog "magically" becomes right as well.
All dogs that are still mentally intact enough DO become the best they can possibly be when the environment is right. The methods YOU subscribe to would NEVER work with an extreme case. You cannot treat dogs like people and expect them to be balanced dogs. It doesn't work like that.
You can believe whatever you want to, but until you can actually produce proof of what you claim, I will continue to write you off for what I see you to be: a fraud. Not only that, but you are offering dangerous, foolish advice to people asking for real help. A lot less ego and a little more research on your part would be nice.
This is not personal to me, I walk away shaking my head from "trainers" like you every day. Even better, the ones in my area that are similar to you in attitude and the advice spouted,, as well as the "credentials" are something I have begun to see value in: as job security. See, I know that when trainers like you use methods that not only don't work, but make the dog much much more unstable and much worse, that I will be called.

when did i ever say treat a dog like a person!!!!!!!!!!!!!!