Carol, I just want to say that nothing you have posted about your behaviorist points to any good advice whatsoever.

I don't know who this is, and don't care. The things you report being told by her are terrible.

I am harping on this again because I truly hope that you do not waste another cent (or another dog's safety) on this kind of advice (euthanize before even recommending separating?).

 Quote: JessicaKromer

Caesar’s methods may work, but only AFTER you have complete control over each dog. Again, COMPLETE CONTROL. ...

And may I add that never is his pack left alone with no human oversight. Never.

I know that there are others here who have been to his facility (his old one, true, but I very much doubt that the new one is run differently). There is zero time with dogs settling stuff on their own or mingling with no human control. Even in the limited TV shots, this is completely clear.

What I'm trying to say is that even if we were all Cesar Millan (and boy, I wish I was, but I'm not; he is part dog!), we would absolutely not have a dog pack loose together on their own.

Carol,
I agree with all of the wise advice you have already gotten. And, I thought it might help you a little if you could better understand what your dog's body language is telling you. Leerburg sells a book by Brenda Aloff on Canine Body Language. If you know
there is trouble coming, it is better to address the issue earlier rather than after it escalates. Maybe your husband will see examples in the book of language he ignored, and it could help him recognize the depth of the problem.

** (deleted in favor of PMs) ** is the trainer we took our 3 dogs to back in mid March, and I did purchase several of her books. I can read dogs pretty well in my vet role, and even in my dogmom role I can see when Cliff has dark looks that pass across his face, and I am on him immediately correcting him when he gets these "looks" toward his sister.
these past 6 weeks he has not been in contact with the older girl Sophie to give any looks to...we have sheets covering the glass doors that seperate Sophie from the young dogs, so that nobody is staring at each other.
I even have a sheet covering the crate in the room where the 2 young dogs stay, as Cliff occasionally glares at Syd when she is in the crate if there is a chew treat in the crate with her. since he started doing the stare downs I have removed the chews from the crate.
I never saw Cliff giving any of the other dogs these "dark looks" until right when all this started. up until 4 months ago he was still acting very puppyish and overnight (so it seemed) things changed.
we never have them outside unsupervised, and ever since the first event occured we kept Cliff in a crate when there was no human supervision..
but prior to the fighting, we did allow all 4 dogs to have free roam of the house when we were not home.
I guess there may have been instances where bad looks were exchanged back before the fights began, and I was not there to observe it happening. thank you again everyone for your advice.

If you would like pointers to material (podcasts, articles, and videos) about pack structure and about basic obedience (once you have everyone crated and have made the re-homing decisions), this site is loaded with the best you can find.

You definitely came to the right place.

And considering that this is a board that cares deeply about the dogs and not too much about the feelings of the owners, you are hanging in there very well.

Will you be able to influence your husband?

 Quote: Mary K.Pope

Carol,
I agree with all of the wise advice you have already gotten. And, I thought it might help you a little if you could better understand what your dog's body language is telling you. Leerburg sells a book by Brenda Aloff on Canine Body Language. If you know
there is trouble coming, it is better to address the issue earlier rather than after it escalates. Maybe your husband will see examples in the book of language he ignored, and it could help him recognize the depth of the problem.

Body language is probably a little down the road in this situation, I think, after multiple dog fights and unrecognized warning signs. As the O.P. pointed out, she was not there to observe any body language, so separation came first. Wisely. Next is at least one re-homing.

http://leerburg.com/308.htm

http://leerburg.com/301.htm

http://leerburg.com/219.htm

http://leerburg.com/302.htm

thank you so much everyone. we are trying to get our ducks in a row..and we will be ordering teaching material from this site and continue working on finding a good home for the male.
I do not know how much my husband will or will not go along with. he has been much firmer in his discipline, but whether it is enough, or the right kind of discipline I guess I will not know until we study videos from this site. he has admitted that Ceasar's way is not doable for us, so that is something. whether we will continue with the trainer we saw in March, or perhaps look for a different trainer, i am not sure. cause I am still sortof reeling about the "euthanasia ia an option to think about long and hard" suggestion. so even though the trainer was very helpful and I am very grateful to her, I am not sure if she even wants to continue working with these guys. she saw all 3 dogs together for 3 hours, and did not see signs of aggression, or any evidence to support seperating them, except that she said the young dogs are too focused on each other, ad their own pack within our family..and that rehoming one of them would be best for quicker training...at that point in time we had just given Grace up, and were not inclined to rehome a 2nd dog if we could possibly avoid doing so. so I will get an order together and do some studying and let you know how things go. it is interesting that all the aussie people in my state let their dogs all live free in the home environment for the most part. and they have aussie fun days...where 150 aussies run free in pastureland..made me very uncomfortable to watch all these dogs who are strangers sizing each other up, but there were no fights and I guess they do this "fun" day frequently. so I didn't think we were doing anything different than everyone else I know of in the rescue group that has aussies. thanks again so very much for all the input. I greatly appreciate all of you.

Euthanizing a dog should be the absolute last resort. The problem you have with your dogs is something that can, over time, be remedied. The trainer sounds like an idiot, IMO. No matter how good she is at training, recommending euthanasia is way too extreme. IMO.

A crate for each dog-we have 3 dogs and they each have a crate.

You can alternate having one of the young ones out with the older dog, or only have one dog loose in the house (tied off to you/hubby/furniture in the room you're in, etc.) and you can have one outside (if this is possible). (Other dog(s) should be in crates while one or two are out)

I do agree with many others here, that there's no reason for all 3 dogs to be out together since there have been multiple fights. I do think that the young ones need to spend more time apart from eachother, the whole "pack inside a pack" dynamic isn't good. They think that they are the alphas when you/hubby aren't around. Not good.

I've been luckly enough to have 3 dogs with 3 completely different "personalities" and various ages that get along. I do hope that you can get your "pack" together without any other incidents. I wish you the best of luck with this and hope to hear more about ANY progress.

I normally don't care to answer these "my dogs don't get along" questions but this one is a disaster waiting to happen.

Toss the "Behaviourist".

"Nice dogs" very well can and DO double up on an older dog if there is no leadership in your "pack". "Your" leadership!

I've lived with multiple dog packs most of my life and multiple terriers for more than half of that time.

Not to be cold hearted but I'm not sure you're cut out to be multiple dog owner. Few people are and able to do it correctly. JMHO!

thank you Keleah for your advice..we do have numerous crates now..and of course we never have the young dogs near the older dog anymore..we rotate them...the young dogs are out together under close observation at times, but we are making the young dogs do much of their day seperate from one another.
we had been following the Dog Whisperer idea that the dogs would bond better doing everything together..geesh..obviously did not work out that way.
the behaviorist said we could have gotten away with how little training we did with 50 other dogs..just not these 2 dogs in particular..but she never explained what she saw in them that made her say that..and then a week later the 2 youngsters attacked Sophie..and they have been seperated every since and I have no plans on ever reintroducing them, even if we continue with this trainer or a different trainer.
I am certainly not sure if I am cut out to be a multiple dog owner either..I have always had 2 to 3 dogs at a time, and never had a fight between my own dogs before now...but I did leave the disciplining to my husband with these 2 dogs due to health issues I was having, and I was not able to walk them myself for the first couple years...so I was "mom" and definitely not the leader..I knew that, but they showed no signs of aggressiveness at all until they turned 3 and I put Grace on the herbal supplement...everything seemed to change overnight, but obviously things had changed long before the fights occured. hindsight is such a great guide. if I could find good homes for the young dogs, or one of them, that is the best option, and I am actively searching for good places...in the meantime we are going to get big 6x4x4 kennels for outdoors, and keep doing the crates and room rotating indoors, and studying videos and books from this site and the other trainer I had purchased materials from...and I am becoming more packleader and less mom...well, ok I am mutating into "Mommy dearest"..thanks again for this input. greatly appreciated.