Whew talk about pouncing on poor L.Swanston. Please can we all take a freakin' chill pill. What was there a post deleted??? Where was the pouncing?? Did I miss it? Hell, I like to be in the middle of it...damn

Nope, nothing deleted... just what you and I said... I didn't think it was pouncing either... *shrugs*

 Quote:

Originally posted by Todd E. Gaster:
A blanket statement of Every dog for Every exercise is naive.

OK maybe not a pounce. Just a little nick. HeHe.

I don't think that is what LSwanston meant. I think Deanna took a teenie weenie shot as well. My bad....little over-reaction maybe. I just did not have a problem with L. Swanston's statement as I thought it was pretty damn accurate. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I think Chuck is on target with his interpretations. I do think that Todd called me on a statement that he thought was, perhaps, a little broad. To elaborate, I do think that you will be hard pressed to find anyone on this board who does not advocate compulsion for just about any behavior problem that crops up. Sorry, but that's just something I have observed in the time that I have spent here. I am one of the few who does not, and I have taken my share of flack for it. Just ask Chuck! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

And, by the way, I do agree that Deanna did take a pot shot.

Aside from that one comment that I made, there is a lot of content that relates directly to the situation that was originally posted about. I'd like to keep the focus on that, if possible.

Sorry if you thought my statement was a low blow, but it was a pretty plain example of a way to train a behavior with compulsion. (I didn't say it was a good way)

I guess you are right about the majority of us here finishing a dog with compulsion. I just had a conversation with the trainers at the Kennel where we use the SchH field about this the other day. They went to an APDT confrence and there were "positive only" people saying the word no was too negative to be used in dog training. Even to say Eh-eh was "too harsh".... :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

I think you can get a long way with a clicker and some weenies if you know and understand what you are doing, but people for the most part do not truely understand WHAT they are doing and go to these 8 week classes that accomplish NOTHING. When the dog is loose on the farm and the dog decides to run you better hope the weenie is a higher drive than the rabbit...

ok, I am rambling, again I am sorry, but I think the dog has to have SOME food drive... he may not be the type to plow you down for food, but make him hungry enough...

he may not be the type to plow you down for food, but make him hungry enough...
There you go with compulsion again. Would you stop that please?

Wow, talk about blanket statements! What is that saying again, something about a pot calling a kettle black? :rolleyes:

I'm not interested in debating the merits or lack of, of "positive reinforcement only". My point was only to tell Maxlee that if that is the type of advice she is seeking, she will not find it here. Nothing inaccurate about that, IMHO.

Now this may be a stupid question - and I have asked it before on other boards - do people really view everything as compulsion, so there is no real training without compulsion?? I don't get that, and would love to have it explained to me. And to clarify - if someone can tell me how every "positive" training must somehow involve compulsion. And don't slam me for being soft - it's not relevant - I want an explanation is all. Thanks. Non trainer me,

LM

Who you jumping on???

My 'blanket' statement was simple. Witholding food is compulsion.

If we want to get down right technical. There is absolutely NO training anywhere that does not involve compulsion at some point. If you ever do something the dog doesn't like, compulsion. If you are taking a walk and the dog wants to go one way and you happen to stop to talk to a friend. Compulsion. It is a fact of life. Every living thing encounters compulsion. I think I made this as all encompassing as possible. I don't care who the trainer is. Heck, even Karen Pryor uses compulsion. If you watch her. With holding praise. Compulsion.

Yes, Todd is dead on.. I let that one slip, the conversation I was having with those trainers (who consequently no longer are involved with APDT because of quackery) is that all training has some compulsion or negative in it. If you understand the 4 basic principles of Operant Conditioning, then you are ahead of the game.

At any rate, I am a terrible abusive person. I own and use a prong :rolleyes:

Purely Positive is a misnomer. If you take away a reward it is not positive anymore...